The Dirty Independence Question

[LJS]

46 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Some things are beyond an open mind, they're proven solid fact.

Such as 'Project Fear' being the victory of fact over the standard nationalist empty rhetoric and deliberate lies.

Look around you, and you might spot another referendum .... where the standard nationalist empty rhetoric looms large too. UKIP and the SNP are the same empty vessels.

 

I think you just proved comfy's case for him.

[eFestivals]

19 minutes ago, LJS said:

I think you just proved comfy's case for him.

How do the indy white paper financial claims stack up today, LJS? And does the reality match what 'project fear' said was the case, or not?

There is only one right answer, yet you're trying to claim the wrong answer as right.

So rather than you being correct about comfy's claims, I'm correct about the empty rhetoric and lies and you've just proven it yet again.

 

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

But I see you can't help under-playing your fellow nutters, who are a bit more than just "2 folk on twitter". It might not be every nationalist nutter, but enough to show the thinking.

Me, I merely mentioned something that's happening and something that's been reported.

You decided to lie about it.

Desperate scenes indeed.

This will be my last post on the Tunnock thing as it`s desperate stuff in my opinion. I really couldn`t care about adverts on the London Underground. The beeb have now had Mr Tunnoch on the radio giving interviews  

My intention was not to " lie " about this. My two folk on twitter and storm in a tea cake comments were clearly not 100% serious but carry on raging if you like. The point I was attempting to make was that this is / was a nothing story yet it`s all over the Beeb and you also see it as news worthy. I`d suggest some on the unionist side are running on empty but I agree the fact that you brought this all up does " show the thinking ".

 

* I like the tea cakes.

[eFestivals]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

This will be my last post on the Tunnock thing as it`s desperate stuff in my opinion. I really couldn`t care about adverts on the London Underground. The beeb have now had Mr Tunnoch on the radio giving interviews  

My intention was not to " lie " about this. My two folk on twitter and storm in a tea cake comments were clearly not 100% serious but carry on raging if you like. The point I was attempting to make was that this is / was a nothing story yet it`s all over the Beeb and you also see it as news worthy. I`d suggest some on the unionist side are running on empty but I agree the fact that you brought this all up does " show the thinking ".

 

* I like the tea cakes.

If it's desperate stuff to report what's happening, it's at least as desperate by those snippers who think Tunnocks should be boycotted.

It's not like the papers are reporting something that isn't happening, even if it's only happening small scale.

It's not "a nothing story". It exposes the tiny minds of many snippers - not that you or me needed it exposing to know it.

Don't YOU think it's an embarressment to what you support? Or are you so wrapped up in the flag that all sense has left long ago?

Edited January 7, 2016 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

23 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

How do the indy white paper financial claims stack up today, LJS? And does the reality match what 'project fear' said was the case, or not?

There is only one right answer, yet you're trying to claim the wrong answer as right.

So rather than you being correct about comfy's claims, I'm correct about the empty rhetoric and lies and you've just proven it yet again.

 

The oil price forecasts in the white paper were incorrect. Many, many other oil forecasts were available at that time from within the industry and they were also incorrect. The oil price is currently lower than expected but support for Indy continues to rise. At some point in the future the oil price  will go up and then at some point it will go down and then....

Despite being accused of it many many many times on here, I`d be surprised if you can find a post from any non-unionist on here over the years who has said their vote on whether Scotland should be an independent country was based on the oil price. I will stand corrected if anyone from any side can quote something......anything from 1000`s of posts that shows one of us YES voters saying that they are doing it for the oil.

I note you are now referring to Project Fear by the name they gave themselves.

Saying " we " voted YES because of greed / oil is pretty daft and I honestly don`t think you believe this is the case. If only some more of the ex Labour voters had decided to vote YES before the ref then us jocks would not have been looking at a Tory Govt for the foreseeable future 

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

If it's desperate stuff to report what's happening, it's at least as desperate by those snippers who think Tunnocks should be boycotted.

It's not like the papers are reporting something that isn't happening, even if it's only happening small scale.

It's not "a nothing story". It exposes the tiny minds of many snippers - not that you or me needed it exposing to know it.

Don't YOU think it's an embarressment to what you support? Or are you so wrapped up in the flag that all sense has left long ago?

I do think this whole "story" is an embarrassment  - yes.

I have already said that I like their teacakes and am not concerned about an advert in the London underground. I like eating the chocolate first, then the mallow and finally the biscuit bit.

I have also said that I am out of this desperate "story" and I really mean it this time. " Wrapped in the flag "  

You are talking about " some " people on twitter ( I assume ) talking about boycotting biscuits. I am highlighting the fact that the BBC have been running with this on the television and radio news bulletins and are now interviewing Mr Tunnocks to check how outraged he is - he isn`t.

He seemed to think it was a non-story ( who knew ) and stated that he had sent a box of tea cakes to nicola and call me Dave - Nice PR. 

Can we drop this now ? Other chocolaty treats are available.

[eFestivals]

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The oil price forecasts in the white paper were incorrect.

True - but there was also no basis for the forecasts that Salmond gave.

 

 

 

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The oil price forecasts in the white paper were incorrect.  Many, many other oil forecasts were available at that time from within the industry and they were also incorrect. The oil price is currently lower than expected but support for Indy continues to rise. At some point in the future the oil price  will go up and then at some point it will go down and then....

It's true that lots of people got the oil price wrong, but there was MUCH more to it than just that.

'Project Fear' said that the oil industry off Scotland was not only in decline (which itself would cause a fall in govt revenue) because the best sources for oil had already been drained, but also that the costs of extraction were soaring too - and because the govt revenue comes from extraction profits and not merely extraction, that was an important part too.

Salmond claimed the govt revenues would be sustained despite less oil being pumped and the costs of extraction rising - which was NOT working from the predictions of other 'experts'.

The price of oil might go up in the future, but it will never EVER cover the shortfall that exists in Scottish govt revenues.

Chokka lays it all out for you in detail or where and how Salmon lied and knew he was lying. Have a read, you might learn something that might just save your pension.

 

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Despite being accused of it many many many times on here, I`d be surprised if you can find a post from any non-unionist on here over the years who has said their vote on whether Scotland should be an independent country was based on the oil price. I will stand corrected if anyone from any side can quote something......anything from 1000`s of posts that shows one of us YES voters saying that they are doing it for the oil.

Oil price, oil price, oil price.

What about "govt oil revenues", or don't you wish to talk about the bit that actually matters?

Salmond promised you riches. He lied!

If you think nothing of indy's support came from mugs swallowing those lies you're daft.

 

11 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I note you are now referring to Project Fear by the name they gave themselves.

I'm referring to it by the name you like to use, which has been proven to actually be Project Correct.

 

23 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Saying " we " voted YES because of greed / oil is pretty daft and I honestly don`t think you believe this is the case.

Would your vote (and every other yes-er) have stayed the same if the truth had been told, and instead of Salmond's false promise of "everything will be the same but better" Salmond had promised the truth of an impoverished future where Scotland's poor would be significantly poorer than now?

So yes, you did vote yes because of 'greed'. You believed you could have it all, because Salmond told you that you could and instead of thinking it about it all you took him at his lying word.

And even now the greed persists. WoS can claim that Scotland has no share of the UK's debts and it gets lapped up. I still constantly see claims that "the oil was just a bonus" when it wasn't, it was the claimed whole basis of iScotland's financial stability as the white paper made clear, and it can be proved those false white paper claims were knowing made as a lie to the Scottish people that would take Scotland to disaster. I still see claims that "Scotland puts in more than it takes out" and all of the same endless bullshit that you lapped up at the time and still lap up, despite there being no facts to back it up.

Salmond didn't care, the prize was indy, he didn't give a shit about the consequences for Scotland.

And the support for indy continues to grow - not because those supporters are thinking about things, but because they're not.

 

29 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If only some more of the ex Labour voters had decided to vote YES before the ref then us jocks would not have been looking at a Tory Govt for the foreseeable future 

True.

You'd have been looking at something far far worse.

Or is GERS and the state of Scottish finances an irrelevance as LJS claims it is, making destitution "irrelevant" for the greater good of indy just as Salmond and :LJS want?

[russycarps]

Do I even need to mention that oil prices dipped below $30 yesterday? That the North sea oil industry is on its arse. Tens of thousands of job losses since 2004. More to come in 2016.

All just an irrelevance though I expect. Won't have any impact on and independent scotland of course. 

The magic date in March is approaching....

[Stash]

1 hour ago, russycarps said:

Do I even need to mention that oil prices dipped below $30 yesterday? That the North sea oil industry is on its arse. Tens of thousands of job losses since 2004. More to come in 2016.

All just an irrelevance though I expect. Won't have any impact on and independent scotland of course. 

The magic date in March is approaching....

Crisis? There is no crisis. We have just actually extracted more oil than ever before in the North Sea. We have the most skilled workforce in the North Sea and it is booming...

 

...it will be a bonus. If oil is taken out of the equation, then Scotland's economic output per head is almost identical to the that of the UK.

The benefit we get from oil and gas will be a huge bonus.

[eFestivals]

6 minutes ago, Stash said:

Crisis? There is no crisis. We have just actually extracted more oil than ever before in the North Sea. We have the most skilled workforce in the North Sea and it is booming...

 

...it will be a bonus. If oil is taken out of the equation, then Scotland's economic output per head is almost identical to the that of the UK.

The benefit we get from oil and gas will be a huge bonus.

shhhh... no mentioning of the negative tax revenues to the country that based 17% of it's tax revenues on oil extraction.

Scotland's boom is done. The economic output per-head is falling, unemployment is now greater than the UK average, and in 20 years time there won't be a Scottish oil industry worth mentioning.

As the saying goes: the value of your investment - in independence - can go down as well as up.

I just read something in one of the Scottish papers about how Nicola is about to reveal that the short term interests of the SNP is of bigger importance to the SNP than independence. Which will make me laugh.

[Comfy Bean]

2 hours ago, russycarps said:

Do I even need to mention that oil prices dipped below $30 yesterday? That the North sea oil industry is on its arse. Tens of thousands of job losses since 2004. More to come in 2016.

All just an irrelevance though I expect. Won't have any impact on and independent scotland of course. 

The magic date in March is approaching....

 

On 07/01/2016 at 9:44 AM, eFestivals said:

 

Oil price, oil price, oil price.

 

 

[eFestivals]

Yep, we know you don't like it mentioned, even tho it's oil extraction tax revenues that is the actual important thing.

The oil price might soar again in the future, but the oil extraction tax revenues never again will.

Salmond lied to you. Salmond knew he was lying to you.

His predictions for the tax revenues (rather than oil price) were his own invention, not based on anything of oil industry predictions - because those predictions all pointed at rapidly increasing extraction costs which he told you was 'bluster'.

Salmond lied to you. Salmond knew he was lying to you.

And you sucked it up.

And even more laughable is that you're still sucking it up ... which will be desperately sad for Scotland's poor if those like you don't suddenly have the blinding light of truth enter your head.

 

 

[russycarps]

Another completely and utterly irrelevant article.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4928a7e-b9ea-11e5-a7cc-280dfe875e28.html#axzz3xCyfCwSe

Sturgeon claiming the effects are balanced by low energy prices. LOL!

The best thing for the raving nationalists is war between saudi arabia and Iran. But I doubt any of them understand why.

Not that there's much left to squeeze out of the north sea.

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by russycarps

[Comfy Bean]

17 minutes ago, Stash said:

Crisis? There is no crisis. We have just actually extracted more oil than ever before in the North Sea. We have the most skilled workforce in the North Sea and it is booming...

 

...it will be a bonus. If oil is taken out of the equation, then Scotland's economic output per head is almost identical to the that of the UK.

The benefit we get from oil and gas will be a huge bonus.

I agree with a lot of this Stash but think Neil`s right that our best years in the North sea are behind us. We never know what lies ahead of course and with investment continuing then some of these jobs lost could return in the future and for sure the oil price will go up at some point. The revenues generated over the decades don`t appear to have been invested well when you look at the current state of play in the UK but unfortunately we are where we are. I was hoping investment in renewables would be increased as there are many reason why we should be looking beyond the oil but unfortunately our Tory leaders don`t appear to see that as a priority.

Nuclear weapons is a different matter of course. Scotland voted to remain with the broad shoulders of the UK so what can you do. Maybe next time  

[Comfy Bean]

1 minute ago, russycarps said:

Another completely and utterly irrelevant article.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4928a7e-b9ea-11e5-a7cc-280dfe875e28.html#axzz3xCyfCwSe

 

 Atleast you admit it 

[russycarps]

1 minute ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 Atleast you admit it 

so you do actually think all that is irrelevant? 

wow...

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, russycarps said:

Another completely and utterly irrelevant article.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c4928a7e-b9ea-11e5-a7cc-280dfe875e28.html#axzz3xCyfCwSe

Sturgeon claiming the effects are balanced by low energy prices. LOL!

The best thing for the raving nationalists is war between saudi arabia and Iran. But I doubt any of them understand why.

 

I hadn't realised that Sturgeon was now running the UK and not just Scotland.

Around 1% of the UK revenues (traditionally) comes from oil extraction revenues, so a price fall more than balances the lost oil revenues.

Around 10% of Scotland's revenues (traditionally) comes from oil extraction revenues, so a price fall destroys Scottish govt revenues (if self-financing, of course).

And of course the indyref was at a time when Salmond could point at oil revenues (for just one year ) of nearly 20% - so the White Paper had oil revenues financing 16% of Scottish govt spending.

Still, it's all irrelevant to Scottish indy. LJS told us so.

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I agree with a lot of this Stash but think Neil`s right that our best years in the North sea are behind us.

Blimey.

Are you able to tell me when that correct idea might have properly infiltrated Scottish-indy conciousness?

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

We never know what lies ahead of course

Well, except nothing about the collapse in oil extraction revenues is a surprise to anyone who was referencing the facts.

It's only a surprise to the people who swallowed Salmond's lies.

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

and with investment continuing then some of these jobs lost could return in the future and for sure the oil price will go up at some point. 

Some of the jobs might return (tho not on a long-term basis). The oil price will definitely eventually rise.

But what won't return are the associated govt revenues. They're gone forever, because the extraction costs are so high and getting higher.

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

The revenues generated over the decades don`t appear to have been invested well

You can spend it or you can invest it. What you cannot do is both.

I seem to remember Scotland screaming that benefits were too low when oil revenues (about 50% English at the time, I'll point out!) were pouring in, and Scotland demandibng that the oil money was spent on Scottish benefits.

How times change, eh? And Scotland forgets.

And i'm just loving that 'socialist' Scotland thinks that socialism is about being idle cos you have capitalist slaves working their arses off for you in other places.

 

5 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Maybe next time  

there's not a next time without a plan.

No one has a plan.

The SNP know there's no point in even trying to think up a plan. Scotland is financially fucked ... unless it cuts back public spending by around 15%.

Vote indy, get cuts worse than the tories. That was the choice in September 2014, and it's the choice for all of the foreseeable future.

You might vote for it. What you won't be able to honestly say is that you're doing it for the poor.

[Comfy Bean]

6 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 Atleast you admit it 

 

4 minutes ago, russycarps said:

so you do actually think all that is irrelevant? 

wow...

I think were getting off on the wrong foot here.  The link isn` taking me to anything on Scotland or oil prices and my snigger was only at YOUR comment about an article YOU were posting being irrelevant.

On reflection, I guess you were being sarcastic so my mistake 

How many times would you like me to say that the white paper predictions ( like so many other oil predictions at the time from within the industry ) were wrong. I don`t think that the future of an independent Scotland lies in the oil in the North sea. I have said this more than once.

Scotland is not independent and the SNP have not had control over the oil revs over the decades. I`m not sure why you continue to " rejoice " in these job losses and blame the current state of play on Salmond or YES voters ? 

Do you think everything else around Scotland and it`s economy is irrelevant away from the oil ?

I don`t and never have.

[eFestivals]

16 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 Atleast you admit it 

There's another article with Sturgeon talking oil, here:-
https://www.energyvoice.com/oilandgas/98376/sturgeon-says-north-sea-oil-industry-is-in-crisis/

She says it's "in crisis". That's a self-funding scottish govt's revenues in crisis, too.

I'm amused that she's offering corporate welfare to some of the world's richest corporates, and no one is calling her a red tory. I wonder why?

 

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

How many times would you like me to say that the white paper predictions ( like so many other oil predictions at the time from within the industry ) were wrong.

That's a squirrel comfy, and you know it.

Oil price predictions are one thing.

Oil extraction taxes which are govt revenues are something entirely different.

Salmond used oil industry predictions for the oil price, but he did NOT use oil industry predictions for the revenues those prices would bring in for the Scottish govt.

Salmond lied. Salmond knew he was lying.

Just once you need to say that Salmond lied. Just the once will do.

Can you do it? Or will you continue to hide behind the squirrel of the oil price?

 

Edited January 14, 2016 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

7 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I`m not sure why you continue to " rejoice " in these job losses and blame the current state of play on Salmond or YES voters ?

To state the truth of the massive damage that indy would have caused to Scoitland's pooirest is not rejoicing in job losses.

It's the same idiot bollocks you always hide behind, because you know the facts but choose not to use them.

I'm rejoicing that Scotland is NOT impoverished, not that it is.

Or are snippers really so stupid as to truly believe that manna falls from heaven by default of independence, and that it's impossible for there to be a version of Scotland less wealthy than currently?

FFS.

 

[russycarps]

9 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

I think were getting off on the wrong foot here.  The link isn` taking me to anything on Scotland or oil prices and my snigger was only at YOUR comment about an article YOU were posting being irrelevant.

On reflection, I guess you were being sarcastic so my mistake 

How many times would you like me to say that the white paper predictions ( like so many other oil predictions at the time from within the industry ) were wrong. I don`t think that the future of an independent Scotland lies in the oil in the North sea. I have said this more than once.

Scotland is not independent and the SNP have not had control over the oil revs over the decades. I`m not sure why you continue to " rejoice " in these job losses and blame the current state of play on Salmond or YES voters ? 

Do you think everything else around Scotland and it`s economy is irrelevant away from the oil ?

I don`t and never have.

scotlands economy without the oil is one that has to impose IMMENSE cuts to public spending. That is the relevant thing here. 

The only rejoicing I'm doing is that the braindead lost the indy vote. The magic date is March is approaching. I am sure you will admit that if scotland was actually going to become independent on that date the country would be facing catastrophe. 

 

 

 

[eFestivals]

17 minutes ago, russycarps said:

I am sure you will admit that if scotland was actually going to become independent on that date the country would be facing catastrophe. 

I think you've stretched 'sure' waaaaaaaaay too far there.

Much more likely is a squirrel to suggest salvation via another means, or even just the simple(minded) "irrelevant" we've already seen.

[russycarps]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I think you've stretched 'sure' waaaaaaaaay too far there.

Much more likely is a squirrel to suggest salvation via another means, or even just the simple(minded) "irrelevant" we've already seen.

 

"Renewables" saving the economy is the new mantra.