news & politics:discussion

[Neil]

Just now, steviewevie said:

I was always more of a McDonnellite

supporter of a mass murder.

[Crazyfool01]

4 minutes ago, Neil said:

it was still embarrassing.

Yeah terrible that the crowd seemed to be enthused by him . How awfull 

[Neil]

2 minutes ago, Crazyfool01 said:

Yeah terrible that the crowd seemed to be enthused by him . How awfull 

enthused to the point of fawning by the old anti-semite. if it wasn't embarrassing why did it become the butt of a thousand jokes?

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, Neil said:

supporter of a mass murder.

Apart from that too.

[fraybentos1]

26 minutes ago, Neil said:

enthused to the point of fawning by the old anti-semite. if it wasn't embarrassing why did it become the butt of a thousand jokes?

It was no guns n roses that’s for sure!

[Neil]

7 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

It was no guns n roses that’s for sure!

Think Corbyn is a bit younger!

[Neil]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:54 PM, Nobody Interesting said:

So the Tories have few, if any British Values then

one is miissing - irony.

[pink_triangle]

I don’t think Starmer has a particular big ego and don’t think he would see success as a crowd chanting his name at Glastonbury . He has one focus and that is winning a general election. We can’t afford labour to be a protest party for the middle classes.

[cellar]

I find it incredibly scary how easily the pro-Israel narrative has been spun this time. I first started taking notice back in 2014, and the narrative was much more subtle but still skewed towards Israel. This time around it is so full on. At least Channel 4 tonight gave some airtime to pro-Palestinian supporters, but its awful. 

Trying to justify Starmers support of Israel as trying to make sure he doesn't repeat Corbyns mistakes is a horrible state of affairs. Trying to stay on the right side of politics is more important than being on the right side of history?

Why is there never the same level of media attention around Israel atrocities? Why aren't we talking about Israel controlling the amount of calories allowed into Palestine? Why aren't we talking about them tear gassing protestors in 2021, why were protesting against Israel going against an international convention? Its really easy why people start to believe in shadowy conspiracies when there are blatant examples of hypocrisy and manipulation from all angles in the West.

Honestly, it just baffles me - why is nothing more being done? Or, rather, why has nothing more ever been done? The Hamas attack is now the perfect excuse to justify Israels position, so why would they do it except out of desperation? 

[cellar]

Just to clarify - I don't believe any of those conspiracies. I just think when people are faced with questions they can't find the answer to (why is the West supporting another apartheid?) they turn to conspiracies. Typical human behaviour, like believing the sun is pulled across the sky in a chariot.

[steviewevie]

Need to at the least get back to a viable two state solution. A one state solution would be ideal, but just can't see that ever happening. Palestinians just keep losing too much land...over the decades there is a flare up and war and Israeli occupation increases and life gets harder for Palestinians. US, China, and countries in region need to get together and draw up a workable plan and get the sides talking. Ideally Netanyahu and his nutty govt would be replaced with something more moderate, same with Hamas in Gaza. 

[Guest]

This is incredible. 

[pink_triangle]

7 hours ago, cellar said:

I find it incredibly scary how easily the pro-Israel narrative has been spun this time. I first started taking notice back in 2014, and the narrative was much more subtle but still skewed towards Israel. This time around it is so full on. At least Channel 4 tonight gave some airtime to pro-Palestinian supporters, but its awful. 

Trying to justify Starmers support of Israel as trying to make sure he doesn't repeat Corbyns mistakes is a horrible state of affairs. Trying to stay on the right side of politics is more important than being on the right side of history?

Why is there never the same level of media attention around Israel atrocities? Why aren't we talking about Israel controlling the amount of calories allowed into Palestine? Why aren't we talking about them tear gassing protestors in 2021, why were protesting against Israel going against an international convention? Its really easy why people start to believe in shadowy conspiracies when there are blatant examples of hypocrisy and manipulation from all angles in the West.

Honestly, it just baffles me - why is nothing more being done? Or, rather, why has nothing more ever been done? The Hamas attack is now the perfect excuse to justify Israels position, so why would they do it except out of desperation? 

I think a few things here. Without the Corbyn years I think labour position would be slightly (although not to the degree you would like) more nuanced, but fact is those years happened and we are where we are.

Also the kind of response you would like, may get likes on twitter but doesn’t save any Palestinian lives. Starmer has pretty much (as opposition leader) zero influence on this and in reality Sunak not a huge amount more while USA are supporting Israel. Therefore Starmer is working in the world as it is, not the one we would like it to be. A different response splits labour and doesn’t save a single Palestinian life.

Saying that I believe Starmer is a decent bloke and wants to help people in need. He can do that a bit more in power, but it will likely be through back room diplomacy than speeches.

 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think a few things here. Without the Corbyn years I think labour position would be slightly (although not to the degree you would like) more nuanced, but fact is those years happened and we are where we are.

Also the kind of response you would like, may get likes on twitter but doesn’t save any Palestinian lives. Starmer has pretty much (as opposition leader) zero influence on this and in reality Sunak not a huge amount more while USA are supporting Israel. Therefore Starmer is working in the world as it is, not the one we would like it to be. A different response splits labour and doesn’t save a single Palestinian life.

Saying that I believe Starmer is a decent bloke and wants to help people in need. He can do that a bit more in power, but it will likely be through back room diplomacy than speeches.

 

I agree. Starmer was being asked quite a few times yesterday by Sky News about his previous support for Corbyn, he skirted round the question but shows how the Corbyn years are impacting things.

Although it does give Starmer the chance to highlight how he’s changed the party for the better. 

[cellar]

7 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think a few things here. Without the Corbyn years I think labour position would be slightly (although not to the degree you would like) more nuanced, but fact is those years happened and we are where we are.

Also the kind of response you would like, may get likes on twitter but doesn’t save any Palestinian lives. Starmer has pretty much (as opposition leader) zero influence on this and in reality Sunak not a huge amount more while USA are supporting Israel. Therefore Starmer is working in the world as it is, not the one we would like it to be. A different response splits labour and doesn’t save a single Palestinian life.

Saying that I believe Starmer is a decent bloke and wants to help people in need. He can do that a bit more in power, but it will likely be through back room diplomacy than speeches.

 

Yeah, I don't disagree with you from the perspective of UK politics - I just care more about what's going on in Palestine than the popularity contest over here.

We could have another Tory government and still have a much more comfortable, safe life than the vast majority of the population of the world. I think we take that for granted a lot.

(In case it needs to be pointed out, no I don't want a Tory government. The point is that our worst will still be better than the best for a lot of people).

[cellar]

Also are you suggesting that Starmer in power would somehow then stop supporting Israel @pink_triangle?

Is this another one of those things that Starmer says he won't do, but we have to believe he's playing a game to win the election and then will do the opposite once he's in power?

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

I think a few things here. Without the Corbyn years I think labour position would be slightly (although not to the degree you would like) more nuanced, but fact is those years happened and we are where we are.

Also the kind of response you would like, may get likes on twitter but doesn’t save any Palestinian lives. Starmer has pretty much (as opposition leader) zero influence on this and in reality Sunak not a huge amount more while USA are supporting Israel. Therefore Starmer is working in the world as it is, not the one we would like it to be. A different response splits labour and doesn’t save a single Palestinian life.

Saying that I believe Starmer is a decent bloke and wants to help people in need. He can do that a bit more in power, but it will likely be through back room diplomacy than speeches.

 

Starmer is just repeating what most main stream politicians in the west are saying. In the end there is support for Israel at moment because of the Hamas attacks, but that support will be severely tested if Israeli response starts leading to mass loss of civilian life in Gaza. Just have to hope the threat of invasion and siege puts Hamas under pressure to release hostages, and then some other country can step in and take over the running of Gaza, Egypt maybe, and then maybe some sort of peace talks can start. I fear Israel will probably go in and try and wipe out Hamas and take over Gaza again, and then we could be looking at a wider conflict.

[steviewevie]

...but doesn't really matter what leaders say in Europe any more, let alone some bloke called Keir Starmer. It's what US, countries in that region , and probably Russia who's influence matters.

[pink_triangle]

54 minutes ago, cellar said:

Also are you suggesting that Starmer in power would somehow then stop supporting Israel @pink_triangle?

Is this another one of those things that Starmer says he won't do, but we have to believe he's playing a game to win the election and then will do the opposite once he's in power?

No, I think Starmer would play a greater role in terms of a movement towards peace. I don’t think that will be done via public statements, but work in the background. However I think there is only so much the leader of the UK can do to influence Israel foreign policy.

[pink_triangle]

1 hour ago, cellar said:

Yeah, I don't disagree with you from the perspective of UK politics - I just care more about what's going on in Palestine than the popularity contest over here.

We could have another Tory government and still have a much more comfortable, safe life than the vast majority of the population of the world. I think we take that for granted a lot.

(In case it needs to be pointed out, no I don't want a Tory government. The point is that our worst will still be better than the best for a lot of people).

I think for everything that is wrong with this country I am lucky to be here, many more worse options than better.

The reality is Starmer has to win a popularity contest if he wants to lead the country. It’s easy for me and you when we can effectively say what we want. I wouldn’t want to have to make the tough decisions that you need to make as PM.

I believe Starmer is in it for the right reasons. I believe lives in this country will be saved by a Starmer led labour government. Whether Palestinian lives will be saved im not sure we have that influence, although I would back him to put the right people in positions to make a small movement in the right direction.

It’s easy to be a labour leader like Corbyn. Happy to be an indefinite party of protest, say what people want to hear and not make tough decisions. Starmer wants to lead and not have people chant his name.

[steviewevie]

UK economy returns to growth! Yay, I mean Boo, or maybe just Meh.

[steviewevie]

 

[pink_triangle]

30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

Seems odd an MP from a super left wing party like the SNP would defect to the torys!

[lazyred]

10 hours ago, cellar said:

Honestly, it just baffles me - why is nothing more being done? Or, rather, why has nothing more ever been done? The Hamas attack is now the perfect excuse to justify Israels position, so why would they do it except out of desperation? 

Hamas don't care about Palistiniens or a peaceful settlement with Isreal. The whole point is to provoke  an Isreali response which they can use to try and widen the dispute. 

[steviewevie]

16 minutes ago, pink_triangle said:

Seems odd an MP from a super left wing party like the SNP would defect to the torys!

Yellow Tories