the elephant in the room... climate change

[Guest]

Neil, I'm not trying to make myself out at Mr Pure and I don't want to have a Barry Fish ding dong with you. But the reality of the figures we've had so far is that by the time we've recouped the possible spend I'll be 78 - if I even last that long. So I'm not seeing it as a financial money maker.

[eFestivals]

Neil, I'm not trying to make myself out at Mr Pure and I don't want to have a Barry Fish ding dong with you. But the reality of the figures we've had so far is that by the time we've recouped the possible spend I'll be 78 - if I even last that long. So I'm not seeing it as a financial money maker.

I'm really not trying to have a ding dong.

I'm merely saying its a money maker, and not a loss maker.

[eFestivals]

I think it's great that you're doing what you're doing. I think it's mad when punters only focus on the financial benefits of renewable energy. At the beginning, yes, it'll cost some money. But the alternative, more or less killing the planet, makes the financial benefits (or not) irrelevant.

absolutely. Overall it's a good thing.

I was merely disputing the idea that it's a greater financial cost than not doing it.

[eFestivals]

It only make money after 8-10 years in most cases. If you die or lose the house before then you will of course made a loss on your investment.

if you factor in death in the same way then every investment is classed a loss maker. It's a rather pointless angle to take on things at the end of the day (tho I get why mr grumpyhack has factored it in to his own thinking in this particular case; it's not pointless when considered against solely him).

It's an asset with future earnings, and as such it still holds a value whoever that asset might be transferred to. Therefore the investment itself is always a money maker.

[grumpyhack]

I don't question that If you are a twenty or thirty something and plan to stay in your house for 20 years then solar is a clear moneymaker - provided you buy in when there is a decent Feed In Tariff.

I only wish I was still a a twenty or thirty something!

[eFestivals]

I only wish I was still a a twenty or thirty something!

don't we all

[Guest]

Its only pointless if the possibility of death isn't a realistic outcome. And we are talking about him and his investment. He said he will probably lose money on it and you said the was stupid.

It also not really provable if solar panels are adding value to houses. It very deabatable. I think there is little doubt that having solar panels will make your house a more attractive option to a buyer, but so does a nicely kept garden without adding any value.

[eFestivals]

does the environment, and the issue of climate change and renewable energy come into the equation for you?

I don't think it does.

The other day he was busy telling me that water generation just doesn't work, and yet for less than a thousand quid you can get cost-effective* water powered generators which will run off the smallest streams with almost no head. And of course the efficiencies are greater as systems scale upwards.

* cheaper per-unit than mains.

[fred quimby]

I don't think it does.

The other day he was busy telling me that water generation just doesn't work, and yet for less than a thousand quid you can get cost-effective* water powered generators which will run off the smallest streams with almost no head. And of course the efficiencies are greater as systems scale upwards.

* cheaper per-unit than mains.

[eFestivals]

Wish I had a stream running through my Garden

yeah, me too. As someone who spent the first part of his working life as a qualified electrician, it'd absolutely love to play around with all the possibilities of water generation.

</nerd>

[eFestivals]

Quite the opposite infact... It was you saying we turned our back on it and don't use it anymore because we think it is shit while I was telling you that they use it in modern dams....

... and wasn't any good for micro-generation.

But hey, you wouldn't lie about yourself, would you?

There is of course, like all renewable energy sources a limit to its use and effectiveness...

the limit being? Streams and rivers and available riverbanks.

And those riverbanks are just chock-a-block with micro generators, eh?

You really are an idiot

says that man who has just chosen to lie about his own words.

[Guest]

Why do you say that ?

I might be adding solar panels to my house soon... No doubt Neil will disapprove

[eFestivals]

A fish dancing on a money string. I like it.

[eFestivals]

So how much power do you think you are likely to get from a water wheel ?

it depends on the size of the water wheel, the rate of flow, and the head.

But it doesn't matter how great the power output is for the ideas you subscribe so strongly to, and which rules so much of the world ... it only matters that it's cost effective.

And guess what? For just about *every* situation where there's flowing water - from the smallest stream to the biggest - it is cost effective.

From my own reading you are looking at powering some of the light bulbs in your house WHEN the wheel is running and as long as it isn't running too fast...

Sounds like a really useful investment....

If it pays for itself - and it does - then it's a worthwhile investment.

Have you suddenly gone all stupid about the capitalism that you're always professing your love for?

[5co77ie]

Why do you say that ?

I might be adding solar panels to my house soon... No doubt Neil will disapprove

[eFestivals]

I think you are a good example of how the green movement is about as a effective as a chocolate fireguard...

Nope, it's far more the case that you're demonstrating the utter stupidity of oil-obsessed capitalists.

But never mind. One day you might wake up and not be stupid.

I'll keep hoping for you, anyway.

[eFestivals]

The Ikea ones look the best deal for me, as you get to keep the money made on the surplus.

eh? That's no different with any that you might pay to have installed.

[Buff124]

Time for the elephant in the room to take a quick glance at the north pole ? Our polar icecap is not in the best of health right now, as you can see below. Lowest ever extent for this date. January temps were 8c above average, Greenland was 10c above. Even a moderate El Nino would turn the Arctic into a gigantic slush puppy this summer.

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm (Changes daily)

Edited February 13, 2014 by Buff124

[Buff124]

Temps in Longyearbyen, Svalbard continuing into uncharted territory. 30 day mean is currently at 14.2°C above average. Evening temps are +4c. The most northerly inhabited settlement in the world, they haven't seen daylight since October 28th. It sure aint the sun that's keeping them ice free thru the winter.

EDIT to add: Svalbard is at a point of heat transfer between the north Atlantic and the Arctic Sea. Don't need to be Einstein to figure out the Atlantic has accumulated a lot more heat to transfer this year.

Which kinda backs up the theory is that atmospheric global warming has *paused* in the past decade because the heat is now going into the oceans. Still gets to bite us in the ass though.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Buff124

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Nah, it's down to the Common Agricultural Policy and how it rewards farmers for chop down trees and hedges, etc.

Dredging will not stop the flooding, it will only mean that any flooding is able to subside more quickly than currently.

What is needed are policies which stop all of the rainwater arriving on the plains from the hills almost immediately following any rain. And that means trees and hedges and un-straightening straightened waterways and the like on all of the land above the plains so that the water takes much longer to arrive on the plains.

And so those Somerset farmers who are screaming "dredge" at the govt need to also spend time screaming 'fools' at themselves and those who share their profession. They have caused the problem far more than govt inaction in regard to dredging.

[eFestivals]

This

While I still agree with what I posted, as time has gone by it's become more and more of an irrelevance for the flooding on the Somerset levels (tho it might have saved the home counties).... to the extent that I almost feel embarrassed for posting it now.

Cos with the amount of rain we've had so constantly I don't reckon there's a lot of anything that would have made much difference to how high the water flooded to on the levels .... but dredging would have made a big difference for how long many properties would be underwater.

I feel desperately sorry for those effected for so long.

[grumpyhack]

From my own reading you are looking at powering some of the light bulbs in your house WHEN the wheel is running and as long as it isn't running too fast...

Sounds like a really useful investment....

[Buff124]

some more Arctic watching. Yesterday's AMSR2 satelitte sweep ain't pretty.

If I was a climatologist, I'd be deeply concerned by the weakness of the ice pack between the North Pole and Svalbard . If I was an oil company CEO, I'd be crewing up an exploration vessel right now.

And to think the melt season doesn't even begin for another 3 weeks.

Map courtesy of University of Bremen (image is updated daily)

http://www.iup.uni-bremen.de:8084/amsr2/arctic_AMSR2_visual.png

[5co77ie]

the unpalatable truth, from one of the guys I tend to believe above most of the others:

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2008/mar/01/scienceofclimatechange.climatechange

For decades, his advocacy of nuclear power appalled fellow environmentalists - but recently increasing numbers of them have come around to his way of thinking. His latest book, The Revenge of Gaia, predicts that by 2020 extreme weather will be the norm, causing global devastation; that by 2040 much of Europe will be Saharan; and parts of London will be underwater. The most recent Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report deploys less dramatic language - but its calculations aren't a million miles away from his.

[eFestivals]

the unpalatable truth, from one of the guys I tend to believe above most of the others:

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2008/mar/01/scienceofclimatechange.climatechange

damn, you beat me to it, I was just about to post about that.

We're fucked people. Humans are morons.