Football 2011-2012

[the_hedge]

Oh, I know why they want to do it - selfish reasons.

What I was getting at is whether they're actually wanted in the Prem. I don't believe that they are, from any angle including the money one that McCoist thinks will sooner or later swing it for them.

There's of course some individuals who might want them, but I don't believe they number enough, either right now or long long into the future.

[the_hedge]

Agree to disagree then. I've posted this below but worth another viewing.

Boca

Tevez forces his way out of the club claiming that the press intrusion in Argentina is too much for him and his family and the club aren't doing enough to support him. Public bust up with manager also ensues.

Claims he loves the club and supporters, and always will.

Time at club - 2 1/2 seasons.

Corinthians

Tevez forces his way out of the club, going on strike, after arguments - some physical - with teammates, the head coach and the club president.

Claims he loves the club and supporters, and always will.

Time at club - 1 season.

West Ham

Tevez almost immediately falls out with the manager and players. Storms off and threatens to go on strike after being substituted vs Sheffield Wednesday. Goes AWOL to Argentina at one point.

Claims he loves the club and supporters, and always will.

Time at club - 1 season.

Manchester United

Tevez complains of being fatigued and overplayed in his first season. In his second, he complains of being underplayed - drama queening it every time he's taken off - managing just 5 goals, despite playing more minutes than the league's third top scorer Fernando Torres.

Parting shot of 'I'll scream in Ferguson's face when I score against them'

Claims he loves the club and supporters, and always will.

Time at club - 2 seasons.

Manchester City

Tevez is tired, homesick, wants to retire, takes time off to see his daughter and is caught on camera spending that time banging his mistress (the actual banging remains unphotographed), feels there's too much greed in football despite being the highest paid player in Britain, hates football in general yet throws a wobbly every time he's taken off, wants his old life back, hates the club executives, claims that he would like to punch his young teammates and finally hands in a transfer request, refuses to come on as sub vs Bayern Munich in the Champions League, is fined as suspended for the maximum period.

Claims he loves the club and supporters, and always will.

Time at club - 2 seasons and counting - the 2 seasons grudgingly, against his will.

I think you may have forgotten what a disruption he is Neil. Great on the pitch yeah, but not at a club long term.

[eFestivals]

He is a complete dick and comparing him to Scholes is just laughable.

but comparing his worse crime with Scholes worst crime isn't.

As for the way he's left clubs, can I just say 'Rooney'?

There really isn't much difference, apart from the in vitriol that comes or not from Utd fans.

[the_hedge]

but comparing his worse crime with Scholes worst crime isn't.

As for the way he's left clubs, can I just say 'Rooney'?

There really isn't much difference, apart from the in vitriol that comes or not from Utd fans.

Edited September 30, 2011 by the_hedge

[The Nal]

but comparing his worse crime with Scholes worst crime isn't.

As for the way he's left clubs, can I just say 'Rooney'?

There really isn't much difference, apart from the in vitriol that comes or not from Utd fans.

[ralph250]

the numbers in the ground are almost worthless in income terms nowadays for Prem clubs. It would of course give them greater crowd income than the likes of Wigan get, but that actually translates into very little that can be done with a team over the likes of Wigan.

[eFestivals]

There isn't much difference on one occasion but when you look at both their careers in ful there is a massive difference. Your hatred towards United clouds your judgments as much the United fan boys

My only hatred is of the double standards that some apply.

[eFestivals]

Eh?

Wigan earned 3.8m for their matchday receipts for 2010. United earn c.£3.6m per game.

matchday recepits are not gate receipts.

The gap is narrowed hugely if just gate receipts are counted.

[eFestivals]

There is a HUGE difference. Gerrard tried to leave Liverpool twice, but thats not comparable just as Scholes or Rooney, or Viera holding Arsenal to ransom about a new contract, as Keane did with Utd.

if it had been a Liverpool fan throwing the sort of vitriol that you managed, then it would have probably been Gerrard and not Rooney that got used as the leaving example (tho Rooney going public no different to Tevez and Gerrard not, might have kept it as Rooney)

Doing it all the time is different from a one off. Clearly?

yep. But he's only refused to play once (*and that's actually in doubt, anyway), no different to Scholes.

(* I don't know whether it's true or not, but his supposed version about refusing to warm up a 2nd time as opposed to refusing to play might be the truth of things).

[TheGayTent]

Almunia? FFS.

I'd sooner play Stech

[ralph250]

Scholes was wrong at the time and rightfully disciplined.

I think argument could be made that a league cup game doesn't have quite the same importance of a CL away game against the toughest opposition in the group. Even more so when in a group of death to begin with where likes of goal difference could be crucial.

Fergie put out the reserves pretty much in the league cup game bar Yorke (last season at United and massively out of favour) and Phil Neville. O'Shea's in there but that was his first real season after his loans at Antwerp and he probably had less than 5 games for us by that stage..

Carroll, Wallwork, Phil Neville, Roche, O'Shea, Stewart, Chadwick, Djordjic, Yorke, Davis, Webber....Subs: Van Der Gouw, Clegg, Tierney, Nardiello, Tate.

Also whilst both undesirable and unprofessional, if I was a manager, I'd rather a player refuse to play prior to a game rather than during it. At least allows you to select a player in his absence to retain a balanced bench. City would've been able to select Balotelli instead. As it was, they had no other forward other than Tevez.

Still doesn't absolve Scholes at the time and he should've played.

Not really sure how it impacts on the clubs class or not (for both clubs). Not exactly City's fault that Tevez refused to play. Could argue caveat emptor given his past history, that there was always a risk of this disruption. Or that should have sold him this summer for a less prohibitive price, but can't blame them for trying to recoup close to what they've outlayed on him; £45m according to that David Conn article on his ownership. His wages alone are prohibitive though, and I think a lot of the clubs that could match that see him as too much hassle.

[eFestivals]

Scholes was wrong at the time and rightfully disciplined.

tho, it has to be said, to a much lower level than for Tevez.

But to be fair, Scholes is often put forwards as a model professional, and I guess that played a big part in how Utd chose to deal with it. As Nal said, Tevez is always disruptive.

But I'm still rather surprised that Scholes played for Fergie again. Fergie's not normally forgiving of any player who challenges his authority.

I've just read that Tevez has refused to apologise, on the basis that he says he did nothing wrong. While that would be the truth of things if he didn't actually refuse to play, he still holds some culpability for the misunderstanding (which takes two) at least, so the wise move would be to apologise for his part in what he says happened.

Someone posted here yesterday that Tevez might have done it so he's not Chumps cup-tied if he can work himself a January move, and a move that a club will stump up for rather than the price City want. If that's really it, then it's as bad as it gets.

I think argument could be made that a league cup game doesn't have quite the same importance of a CL away game against the toughest opposition in the group. Even more so when in a group of death to begin with where likes of goal difference could be crucial.

Hmmm, I'd say that's of zero importance. Refusing to play is refusing to play. It's shitting in your own bed, no matter who the opposition.

Also whilst both undesirable and unprofessional, if I was a manager, I'd rather a player refuse to play prior to a game rather than during it. At least allows you to select a player in his absence to retain a balanced bench.

yep, that's true.

His wages alone are prohibitive though, and I think a lot of the clubs that could match that see him as too much hassle.

yup - tho if he can be got at a bargain price because City want rid then that ceases to be as much of an issue.

I can't remember now if it was before or after that match this week that there was paper talk of Real wanting him. While paper talk is of course unreliable, there could be something to it, or Tevez might have thought there was something to it.

The more I think it thru the more possible it seems that there's something more to it all, tho a club can only work on what a player does - and with that it's really not much different to Scholes.

[ralph250]

matchday recepits are not gate receipts.

The gap is narrowed hugely if just gate receipts are counted.

[ralph250]

Tevez is cuptied. Came on in the last 10 minutes or so in the Napoli game.

[eFestivals]

True, corporate hospitality and such

with Utd, I'd have thought that stadium tours account for a large chunk of it.

But anyway, that wasn't really my point. My point was that the addition of Celtic & Rangers to the Prem would make little difference to the income floating around within all the Prem (including stuff like TV revenues, etc), and so ultimately wouldn't improve the quality of the Prem, or give a driver via that money for Celtic and Rangers to come into the Prem.

And it of course becomes more the case when any players from outside of the Prem are bought, because with Celtic and Rangers being able to spend more on players than (say) the likes of Wigan, it would just add to the monetary competition for those wanted players, pushing up their prices (without any gain in player quality for the Prem resulting from it) and also pushing up the money that leaks out of the Prem into other leagues (and so working against the 'extra money in the Prem' idea that McCoist is suggesting will see them in it eventually).

If the Prem continues down the path of money being the object of the game and not footie, it'll be ultimately signing its own death warrant anyway.

What would Rangers and Celtic do then? Beg Scotland to take them back? Too late, them leaving will have killed that too.

It's all very well for the top Prem teams to dream of a Euro Super League, but it's no future for football.

[eFestivals]

Tevez is cuptied. Came on in the last 10 minutes or so in the Napoli game.

ahh, cheers for that. So not that then.

[ralph250]

But I'm still rather surprised that Scholes played for Fergie again. Fergie's not normally forgiving of any player who challenges his authority.

[ralph250]

Pre-season tours? was reportedly worth around $2m dollars per game (5 games), so c. £6.5m which isn't much compared to the £108m for matchday.

edit: The additional pull to overseas tours is obviously hope to entice Sponsors.

-------------

edit: Agree debatable whether Celtic/Rangers would bring much additional revenue to the Prem (though as The Hedge clarified, that wasn't what he was saying),

but argue against the assertion that the prem wouldn't benefit from gain in player quality. Agree, there could be increased competition for signings, but if a club has a budget to buy three £10m players and lose out on their first targets to rivals, they rarely say we'll settle with what we've got. Generally they'll look to bring in a different £10m player.

As I said though, I'm not really looking to advocate their inclusion.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ralph250

[The Nal]

But I'm still rather surprised that Scholes played for Fergie again. Fergie's not normally forgiving of any player who challenges his authority.

[eFestivals]

Fergie's pragmatic.

Yep. He's only an arsehole when he feels safe enough of his position to be an arsehole.

(which is of course most of the time )

Most players Fergies got rid of have been those whose influence was waning, plus Scholes apologised straight after.

from the Scholes BBC article of yesterday I got the impression the apology was a week later, but perhaps I misunderstood.

[eFestivals]

Pre-season tours?

no, I was meaning punters having stadium tours on match days, along with buying the ticket for their seat for the game.

[ralph250]

Yep. He's only an arsehole when he feels safe enough of his position to be an arsehole.

(which is of course most of the time )

from the Scholes BBC article of yesterday I got the impression the apology was a week later, but perhaps I misunderstood.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ralph250

[ralph250]

no, I was meaning punters having stadium tours on match days, along with buying the ticket for their seat for the game.

[The Nal]

Yep. He's only an arsehole when he feels safe enough of his position to be an arsehole.

(which is of course most of the time )

from the Scholes BBC article of yesterday I got the impression the apology was a week later, but perhaps I misunderstood.

[pink_triangle]

Scholes has a book coming out so expect the odd "shocker" from him until then.

Should be a great read!