Political equality @ Glasto...

[frostypaw]

No you are wrong.

 

You can't squirrel away wealth.  You need income to keep inflation from eroding it.

I bought a home several years ago.

It has increased in value beyond inflation.

I have friends with 'portfolios' ( ) which have increased in value significantly. AFAIK they don't pay tax on those increases, only on what they draw from it as 'income'.

You talk bollocks.

[arcade fireman]

Selfish?  Where have I ever used "me" as an example?  It's the principle of things that is important to me.

 

You can NEVER get total equality, nature ensures that. 

 

Two couples, one both Doctors another both toilet attendants.

 

The likelihood of the children of the latter being as intelligent as the former is slim, wouldn't you agree?  It's therefore likely that they will have a better "chance" in life, irrespective of the circumstances in which they are brought up. 

 

It's also perfectly natural for people to wish to pass on their assets to their children as I have outlined above.

 

Frankly, given I haven't revealed my personal situation, you have no idea whatsoever, if espousing these views makes me selfish or not, so kindly refrain from the insults.  Thanks.

Okay so I'm a doctor. My parents are also both doctors. I feel incredibly lucky to have grown up in the environment I did. And while I can't say where I'd be if my parents were both toilet cleaners, I know the probability that I would have ended up doing exactly what I wanted would be a hell of a lot less than it has been. 

So I'm all in favour that gap is helped to narrow. Of course we won't close it completely. Yes it's perfectly natural for parents to want to pass on their assets. Most people don't have anything against parents passing some things on to their children. But it's completely fair that's taxed to help the children who are less fortunate. 

 

Before these inheritance tax changes, I would eventually likely be in the zone where I'd be paying a fair amount of tax in years to come. Now, almost certainly I won't be paying any when the time comes. However, I don't think that's particularly fair.

 

Yes the money my parents earned was taxed, but they earned it, not me. I got enough help early on in life, and no right minded person in such a position should mind that money being given away to help those less fortunate - especially when they'll be getting a pretty tidy amount anyway. 

Edited July 21, 2015 by arcade fireman

[arcade fireman]

Oh and your concept of "intelligence" is absolutely skewed too. Sure some intelligence is genetic. However much of it is nurture rather than nature, and subject to environmental influences.

 

Additionally if the toilet cleaner's children and the doctor's children were both of identical intelligence (which for arguments sake we use IQ, even though it's not a great measure), the doctors children would still have to work a lot less hard to do well in life. 

 

I'm not sure if it's wilful, but you just don't seem to understand the world at all. 

[DeanoL]

It seems more than harsh!

"Sorry, I know you have lived here all your life, formed bonds in the community, perhaps lived with your parents as you are priced out of the housing market, but your parents are now dead. To pass on our condolences we are going to evict you from the house. But don't worry the money is going to the state, where it will be used wisely".

Because a mortgage with a 60% deposit is really hard to get...

Interesting again. I am totally the opposite and believe that inheritance tax is a blight on society.

How is inheritance not income?

Your flat tax rate could work, but it would have to be applied entirely universally, and that means stripping out all the parts of the system that benefit the rich, not just using it to charge the poor more. If it's 30% then:

Corporation tax is 30% to cover money going to non residents

Inheritance tax is 30% on everything (no threshold) as it's no different to income

VAT is abolished, so those who spend are not disadvantaged over those who hoard

That's how a universal system works, you get rid of all other taxes except for that single rate on income, and apply it to absolutely everything. So to flip it around on you now, would you actually prefer that sort of system? It's less appealing when you realise all the safeguards you rely on go with it , isn't it?

[Teddington]

I bought a home several years ago.

It has increased in value beyond inflation.

I have friends with 'portfolios' ( ) which have increased in value significantly. AFAIK they don't pay tax on those increases, only on what they draw from it as 'income'.

You talk bollocks.

 

No I'm afraid you do.

 

Home ownership has costs (ask any  home owner).  You can't just "buy a house" and leave it at that.  There will be capital gains tax for anyone with a portfolio when it comes to sell it, Income tax on any rent they achieve, and possibly stamp duty on the original purchase.  Of course the  value could also go down, it's called an investment for a reason.

[Teddington]

I see Teddington avoided some questions.

 

I wonder why...?

 

Which ones?

[frostypaw]

No I'm afraid you do.

 

Home ownership has costs (ask any  home owner).  You can't just "buy a house" and leave it at that.  There will be capital gains tax for anyone with a portfolio when it comes to sell it, Income tax on any rent they achieve, and possibly stamp duty on the original purchase.  Of course the  value could also go down, it's called an investment for a reason.

"When it comes to sell it"

but while it's sitting there it just grows in value. in no way whatsoever will it's running/maintenance/sale costs outstrip that

of course as you say this house price bubble may burst spectacularly and I will boo-hoo, but that's not the point here - the point is you claimed people can't just sit on money and watch it increase in value.

They can, they do. Why do you think anyone invests at all? *sigh*

[eFestivals]

Which ones?

then you'll need to give me the moral case for why some people are special and deserve more without meriting it.

This should be interesting.

[Teddington]

"When it comes to sell it"

but while it's sitting there it just grows in value. in no way whatsoever will it's running/maintenance/sale costs outstrip that

of course as you say this house price bubble may burst spectacularly and I will boo-hoo, but that's not the point here - the point is you claimed people can't just sit on money and watch it increase in value.

They can, they do. Why do you think anyone invests at all? *sigh*

 

Tell that to those in the Republic of Ireland who bought 7 years ago..............

[Teddington]

 

 

 

Because I believe it to be morally right to be able to pass on "things" to your children, be that money, assets, advice, manners, anything.

[DeanoL]

funnily enough, we're no different at all about this.

 

I vote as I do because I see that as beneficial to me - not financially - as well as to everyone else. I don't believe I'm voting myself poorer, but instead richer via a mentally richer and culturally richer society.

 

I suspect you do nothing different, unless you're deliberately trying to make a worse society...?

Fair point

The problems come via actually making a change in approach, rather than via what that change of approach is. If you take money away from someone that money can't be spent where it would have been, and that causes an effect.

So, for example, if you take money away from a rich person, that rich person can't invest it where he would have otherwise done which means jobs are not created which would otherwise be created.

That applies both ways though. Yes that rich person might invest in UK industry. They might also just spend that money to buy up housing, put it in a savings account, or invest in foreign stock markets.

 

Likewise when you take from rich people, they can't then spend that money in shops, giving those businesses increased profit that may eventually create jobs. It's less money in the economy either way. And poor people are a lot less likely to just squirrel it away somewhere where it's doing nothing.

 

Cut from the rich or poor, net result you still end up taking money out of the economy - I don't see rich people's money being inherently more valuable.

[Amy Lawn]

Because I believe it to be morally right to be able to pass on "things" to your children, be that money, assets, advice, manners, anything.

Abject poverty? You'd love a caste system, wouldn't you?

[Teddington]

Abject poverty? You'd love a caste system, wouldn't you?

 

No

[eFestivals]

Because I believe it to be morally right to be able to pass on "things" to your children, be that money, assets, advice, manners, anything.

so some people are born special in your eyes, and they deserve a special life of privilege because of it.

Glad we've sorted that one out.

[Bignews]

so some people are born special in your eyes, and they deserve a special life of privilege because of it.

Glad we've sorted that one out.

That's just circumstance though, some people are born in other countries, do you believe our immigration policies should let everyone in to our country because they want to?

[stuartbert two hats]

That's just circumstance though, some people are born in other countries, do you believe our immigration policies should let everyone in to our country because they want to?

You've hit the nail on the head about why anti-immigration is fundamentally immoral.

[Bignews]

You've hit the nail on the head about why anti-immigration is fundamentally immoral.

I wasn't arguing either way, just using it as an example

[stuartbert two hats]

I wasn't arguing either way, just using it as an example

 

Fair enough.

 

If we're being fair, then yes we should have open borders and very high rates of inheritance tax.  As a white, middle class male living in Western Europe I am a VERY privileged person.  I work quite hard in my job, but there are literally billions of people who work harder than me for less return.

 

If we take the moral stance that all people are born equal and should have equal opportunity in life, then borders and inheritance make absolutely no sense.

Edited July 22, 2015 by stuartbert two hats

[eFestivals]

That's just circumstance though

Yes, it's a circumstance.

The question was, was that circumstance a good moral thing or a bad moral thing?

And it's clearly a bad moral thing for some people to get unmerited privilege - it's the 'moral hazard' that bankers hate to have pointed out.

Edited July 22, 2015 by eFestivals

[stuartbert two hats]

Fair enough.

 

If we're being fair, then yes we should have open borders and very high rates of inheritance tax.  As a white, middle class male living in Western Europe I am a VERY privileged person.  I work quite hard in my job, but there are literally billions of people who work harder than me for less return.

 

If we take the moral stance that all people are born equal and should have equal opportunity in life, then borders and inheritance make absolutely no sense.

 

Note that I'm not donating all my money to Africa - because I like my privilege and I, like most people am morally imperfect.  I'm just not kidding myself that  'I deserve it' or some other bollocks. 

Edited July 22, 2015 by stuartbert two hats

[Bignews]

Yes, it's a circumstance.

The question was, was that circumstance a good moral thing or a bad moral thing?

And it's clearly a bad moral thing for some people to get unmerited privilege - it's the 'moral hazard' that bankers hate to have pointed out.

In that case, it's clearly a bad moral thing you were born in the u.k, right? Because we are all extremely privileged

[stuartbert two hats]

In that case, it's clearly a bad moral thing you were born in the u.k, right? Because we are all extremely privileged

Absolutely. Do you disagree?

[eFestivals]

In that case, it's clearly a bad moral thing you were born in the u.k, right? Because we are all extremely privileged

Absolutely. I wouldn't be stupid enough to claim differently.

Teddington was that stupid.

[Bignews]

Absolutely. Do you disagree?

Morally, I agree, in reality it wouldn't work having free borders

[stuartbert two hats]

Morally, I agree, in reality it wouldn't work having free borders

Wouldn't work very well for the privileged, I'm sure you're right.