The Dirty Independence Question

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

I suspect you entered this indy debate with your conclusions already drawn. I accept that you see it this way. Many other folks on both sides don`t feel the level of hate that you seem to and none I`ve met are reduced to posts like you`ve made above or the stuff around blood and soil. I think we both know why you regularly choose that form of words when talking about the SNP.

those quotes are taken out of context.

You're so fixated on finding something for grievance that you can't even read and understand the words right in front of you.

Those quotes are pointing out that the dream of indy will not be the reality of indy, and so those will end up as the only 'good' parts in some people's minds. The rest will have no good parts.

Perhaps that's not applicable to someone of your mindset - I can't say I've really grasped what you think is so great now you're admitting you'd be voting yourself much poorer - but LJS got into supporting indy because he said he believed it would deliver a better deal for Scotland's poor ... and because it's clear it cannot do that, it can only make them poorer still, all he's left holding is a flag.

 

Edited February 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

And before I depart for the night, here are the latest numbers

 

 

What that reveals more than anything is that either a significant number of Scots are entirely politically ignorant, or they can't answer a question honestly. 

It's probably a mixture of both, tho based on my often said thing of 50% of the electorate (any electorate) being politically stupid, it's probably mostly the first.

Because while the others are largely a matter of opinion, only the entirely ignorant or deliberately lying could say none have been kept.

Edited February 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

10 hours ago, LJS said:

And before I depart for the night, here are the latest numbers

 

When 44% of no voters believe none or most of the Better together campaign's promises have been broken, there might just be a glimmer of hope that folk will exercise a bit more scepticism next time round when they say voting yes will take us out of the EU (Oops, they can't say that) well voting yes will destroy shipbuilding jobs (oops...in today's news looks like they're going) OK then voting  yes will mean we lose inland revenue jobs (Oh they've gone already have they?) 

And so on

And yet there's all that broken trust, and indy still can't take a lead in the polls.

For indy to be better, to beat that broken trust, the SNP have to be trusted to be able to deliver on their own claims.

I've little doubt that if a real case could be made for the finances to stand up, Scotland would be indy in a heartbeat. The problem is those awkward facts which keep getting in the way.

PS: some jobs might have gone, but you might also notice ever-falling unemployment rates. And also, after indy, MORE jobs might go.

Just because the real world might be a bit shit, it doesn't get to mean that all alternatives are better.

Edited February 19, 2017 by eFestivals

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

those quotes are taken out of context.

You're so fixated on finding something for grievance that you can't even read and understand the words right in front of you.

Those quotes are pointing out that the dream of indy will not be the reality of indy, and so those will end up as the only 'good' parts in some people's minds. The rest will have no good parts.

Perhaps that's not applicable to someone of your mindset - I can't say I've really grasped what you think is so great now you're admitting you'd be voting yourself much poorer - but LJS got into supporting indy because he said he believed it would deliver a better deal for Scotland's poor ... and because it's clear it cannot do that, it can only make them poorer still, all he's left holding is a flag.

 

They are your words made across several posts. There are loads more but if you're saying they are all out of context then fair enough. If you think that I support Indy because I hate England then fair enough. 

You still appear to end this mornings post with more of this flag holding stuff which probably contributes to me not being able to understand the words that you continuously put in front of me about your conclusions / views.

If you think support for Indy is based on racism or hatred then say that.

If you think there are similarities between Sturgeon and Hitler or Scotland and nazi germany then why not make that clear either way. That would obviously prevent me from quoting you out of context.

As I've said before, I wouldn't insult your intelligence by thinking that your choice of the blood and soil reference is a mere coincidence ;-)

[eFestivals]

26 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

They are your words made across several posts. There are loads more but if you're saying they are all out of context then fair enough. If you think that I support Indy because I hate England then fair enough. 

You still appear to end this mornings post with more of this flag holding stuff which probably contributes to me not being able to understand the words that you continuously put in front of me about your conclusions / views.

If you think support for Indy is based on racism or hatred then say that.

Do you honestly think none of it is?

You take mention of that specific part as applying to all, and self-invent the insult you see.

 

26 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

If you think there are similarities between Sturgeon and Hitler or Scotland and nazi germany then why not make that clear either way. That would obviously prevent me from quoting you out of context.

It's LJS who keep posting the Hilter stuff, not me. He can't differentiate blood & soil nationalism from nazism.

 

26 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As I've said before, I wouldn't insult your intelligence by thinking that your choice of the blood and soil reference is a mere coincidence ;-)

I used that phrase because it's Sturgeon's own reference to blood and soil. FFS.

Sturgeon is invoking ancient Scotland, and claiming a greater right by it. That ancient Scotland is one formed in blood and soil.

If I'm wrong, tell me what the civic is in "Scotland is a country"?

[Comfy Bean]

51 minutes ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

If you think there are similarities between Sturgeon and Hitler or Scotland and nazi germany then why not make that clear either way.

Can we come back to this specific point to save further confusion please ?

[eFestivals]

Just now, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Can we come back to this specific point to save further confusion please ?

They're both short.

FFS

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Do you honestly think none of it is?

You take mention of that specific part as applying to all, and self-invent the insult you see.

None of us have ever suggested there are no indy supporters who may well fit you "blood & soil" nonsense. You are not applying to them. You are applying to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

It's LJS who keep posting the Hilter stuff, not me. He can't differentiate blood & soil nationalism from nazism.

I can differentiate perfectly well, thanks. Blood & Soil as an ideology predated the rise of the National Socialist Party.  But in the public mind ( and on google image search - shall we play that game a bit more?) the two are inextricably linked. You know that and you know it when you first used the phrase. Some might give you the benfit of the doubt - but not me. I have no doubt the choice of phrase was quite calculating & deliberate. 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

 

I used that phrase because it's Sturgeon's own reference to blood and soil. FFS.

All Sturgeon has said is "Scotland is a country. For this to be blood & soil she has to say what sort of country that is. The problem that she has made very clear what sort of conutry she celieves scotland is and it doesn't fir any definition of Blood & Soil. All you hvae is "Scotland is  a country" If saying that makes you a Nazi (let's cut the Blood & soil crap) or a Fascist then there's about 3 or 4 million Nazis wandering the streets of Scotland

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Sturgeon is invoking ancient Scotland,

No she's not.

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

and claiming a greater right by it. That ancient Scotland is one formed in blood and soil.

How Scotland was formed is entirely irrelevant 

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

If I'm wrong, tell me what the civic is in "Scotland is a country"?

I've told you at great length. You disagree. Unfortunately disagreeing is never enough for you. You have to paint the one you are disagreeing with as stupid or racist or a Nazi. I'm not quite sure why that is. I's sure Psychologists could tell us - probably some deep seated insecurity. 

Anyway lets brighten up our Sunday with some Blood & Soil Unionism. I don't know if you are familiar with the works of Effie Deans. She writes a blog entitled Lily of St Leonards. She is a bat shit crazy SNP hating Brexit loving nutter. I think you'd like her - I'd certainly have a look if you haven't already. Unless you are Lily of St Leonards?

She doesn't think Nats are worth  debating with and would tip Holyrood into the Forth in a heartbeat. She has a loyal band of followers who worship the rancid ground that she walks on. She believes that under no circumstances should the UK government permit a second indyref but spends some time this week discussing who should be allowed to vote if we do have one...

 

Quote

 

The question of who decides whether Scotland should remain a part of the UK must also be addressed. I would not expect to decide on such an issue in any other country. What right do I have to determine if Bavaria should revert to being a sovereign independent nation state? I am not a German, nor am I Bavarian. What has it to do with me? Someone who wants to break up my country while keeping his own intact is a hypocrite. We have defended our country’s territorial integrity against foreign armies. To allow them to vote us out of existence is perverse. Therefore only British citizens should decide. Moreover, it is unfair that Scots who happen to be living outside Scotland, perhaps for a short time, should have no say in our country’s future. For this reason I would argue that any British citizen who has been on the Electoral register in Scotland in the past twenty years should have the right to vote.

 

The franchise too on such an important issue should be exactly the same as during a General Election. It makes no sense to give the vote to school children as the issues involved are those that adults who work and have to run a house are more likely to understand as directly affecting their lives. If we are to give the vote to 16 year olds, why not 15 year olds? Why not 10 year olds? The issue concerns their future too. The SNP know that school children are frequently little nats because of football. They also know that they often grow out of it. The break-up of our country is an issue for careful thought and consideration. Let it be decided by adults.

 

http://effiedeans.blogspot.co.uk/2017/02/playing-hardball-with-mrs-angry.html#comment-form

 

That's more blood & soil than anything Sturgeon has ever said. 

p.s. I accept that Effie's sweet & harmonious views are not representative of the vast majority of supporters of the Union who are by and large quite normal and reasonable people

 

 

 

[LJS]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

They're both short.

FFS

Hitler was 5' 9"   That's not that short!

Nicoal is 5' 4"

[eFestivals]

4 minutes ago, LJS said:

None of us have ever suggested there are no indy supporters who may well fit you "blood & soil" nonsense. You are not applying to them. You are applying to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP.

blood and soil applies to Sturgeon because she regularly goes blood and soil: "Scotland is a country" and claims greater rights by it.

If that's wrong, tell me what the civic is in that.

You never do.

[eFestivals]

21 minutes ago, LJS said:

Hitler was 5' 9"   That's not that short!

and 10% isn't much of a deficit.

 

[LJS]

More Blood & Soil Unionism

 

British nationalist lashes out at English pro-independence supporters

 

 

Unionist in angry outburst at English people backing Scottish independence 

A RETIRED ACADEMIC held up as a leading ‘voice of unionism’ in Scotland has launched a bizarre, offensive outburst at English people for backing Scottish independence. 

Jill Stephenson, previously placed at the university of Edinburgh, hit out at “these fuckers from south of the border” in her latest online rant against the independence movement. 

Stephenson, connected to the Scotland in Union campaign group and recently published as a columnist in the Scotsman, previously hit the headlines for calling young MP Mhairi Black a “foul-mouthed slut” and speculated on arming herself for political purposes.

 

jill.jpg

https://www.commonspace.scot/articles/10352/british-nationalist-lashes-out-english-pro-independence-supporters

 

 

[Comfy Bean]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

blood and soil applies to Sturgeon because she regularly goes blood and soil: "Scotland is a country" and claims greater rights by it.

 

As far as I'm aware, Sturgeon has to state the obvious.....Scotland is a Country.....because people keep putting it to her that some city in England also voted remain.

Its an obvious response to what seems a pretty silly question. I've seen her asked it a lot and that is her stock answer.

Unprompted by dumb questions, her current line of the type of Country she wants Scotland to be is the exact opposite of the picture her haters want to paint.

 

[Comfy Bean]

3 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

 

If you think there are similarities between Sturgeon and Hitler or Scotland and nazi germany then why not make that clear either way. That would obviously prevent me from quoting you out of context.

 

So apart from their height, can you pick up on this Neil when you have a mo.

Either way it will make your own view clear and prevent any misrepresentation.

Im not talking about the eejits who exist on both sides, I'm interested in your own personal view on this.

[LJS]

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

blood and soil applies to Sturgeon because she regularly goes blood and soil: "Scotland is a country" and claims greater rights by it.

If that's wrong, tell me what the civic is in that.

You never do.

I've told you clearly every time you've asked. Here's someone else to tell you - hes  Associate Professor of Development Studies in the Department of International Development at the LSE  (or was when this was written whcih was jsut before the referendum but nothing has changed since to make it any less true/.

Quote

 

The current debates on Scottish independence are a fascinating contrast to this narrative. The Scottish National Party (SNP) is explicitly nationalist, not only in its name but also in its goal to create a Scottish nation-state. However, it also explicitly promotes civic nationalism, such that it has claimed that membership in the Scottish nation is to be defined not by blood but by voluntary attachment to Scotland and participation in its civic life. The SNP has been rewarded with support from ethnic minorities, such that Scots of Asian descent actually support independence at a higher rate than the rest of the population.  The fact that such groups as Africans for an Independent Scotland, English Scots for Yes and Scots Asians for Yes even exist is clear evidence of how the Yes campaign is able to draw upon non-ethnically Scottish residents of Scotland who support independence.

Indeed, the contrast between the SNP and other nationalist movements and parties is striking. In the run-up to the recent European elections in May 2014 I received a flyer from the BNP, which attempted to explain to the ignorant masses how the SNP wasn’t a “real” nationalist party since true nationalism meant cutting immigration and protecting the rights of indigenous Britons.  Scottish nationalism is also different in this sense from other secessionist movements. Jacques Parizeau, the Premier of Quebec who led the secessionist campaign in Quebec’s 1995 referendum on independence, infamously blamed the failure of the campaign on “money and ethnic votes,” since around 90 per cent of immigrants voted against independence. Catalan nationalism also has a quiet undercurrent of ethnic nationalism, with one former President of the Catalan Parliament complaining that “Catalonia will disappear if current migration flows continue.”

In contrast, the SNP has praised high levels of immigration into Scotland, and it was an SNP representative, Bashir Ahmad, who became the first non-white and first Muslim Member of Scottish Parliament (MSP) in 2007, followed by the election of a second Muslim SNP MSP, Humza Yousaf, in 2011. Moreover, while non-white residents of Scotland have the right to vote in the referendum on independence, those Scots who live outside Scotland but within the UK are not allowed to cast a vote.  Thus those who are ethnically Scottish wholly or in part – including UK Prime Minister David Cameron, whose father was born in Scotland, and former Prime Minister Tony Blair, who was born in Edinburgh to a Scottish father – do not have the right to vote, in contrast to non-Scots resident in Scotland (including those from Commonwealth and European countries who are not UK citizens). This decision to exclude non-resident Scots from the vote only emphasizes the civic nature of Scottish nationalism, such that ethnic descent and birthplace is less important than one’s commitment to residence in Scotland.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/scottish-nationalism-stands-apart-from-other-secessionist-movements-for-being-civic-in-origin-rather-than-ethnic/

 

Or how about our old pal, Billy Bragg

Quote

 

The ethnic nationalism of the BNP is there for all to see – a plan for a society that excludes people on grounds of race. The programme of the SNP takes a diametrically opposite position – an inclusive society based on where you are, not where you’re from.

This is civic nationalism – the idea that all citizens should be engaged in the process of deciding where society is headed, not just getting their hands on the tiller once every four or five years. It utilises the n-word because democracy on a national level offers the best opportunity for fundamental change.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/scottish-nationalism-british-westminster-class

 

Or Here's Alex Massie in the Spectator  - no friend of the SNP (my emphasis)

Quote

 

Which is why, I think, it possible to accept that the SNP’s view of itself as a civic, sober, party can be largely true even as some of its opponents can also reasonably conclude that there is, no matter how much the party insists otherwise, an echo of an uglier, more traditional, nationalism within it. The SNP’s official position is admirably ecumenical; its underlying position, even worldview, unavoidably sectarian (a word I use in as neutral a fashion as possible). This remains the case even though entry to the party and to the movement is open to all, regardless of ancestry.

So it is complicated even if it’s not so complicated as to render suggestions the Nats are a bunch of McNazis anything other than contemptible. They’re not and it profits no-one to claim otherwise. This is so even though there are plenty of vile people within the wider nationalist movement (This is also true, for sure, of their opponents as Nicola Sturgeon’t timeline can confirm.)

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2015/06/is-the-snp-an-anglophobic-party-or-just-a-party-for-anglophobes/

 

I guess they'll all be wrong & you'll be right.

[LJS]

In fairness to Neil, there are some folk who agree with him...

I'm not saying there will be concentration camps but SNP ARE like Nazis': Now David Starkey likens rise of Sturgeon to Hitler

...

The 70-year-old was yesterday branded a 'serial utterer of bile and bilge' after comparing the Saltire to a swastika and accusing the SNP of treating the English in the way Hitler persecuted the Jews.

Today he said he was not suggesting Miss Sturgeon was ‘about to set up concentration camps’ but he said far-right parties like the BNP were ‘nothing’ compared with the SNP ‘which has seized control of a whole country’.

...He even drew parallels between Scottish men showing their knees in kilts and the Nazi enthusiasm for lederhosen.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3124570/Now-David-Starkey-likens-rise-Sturgeon-Hitler.html

 

The SNP is a dangerous party and must be stopped, just as the Nazis were. Of course, there is that issue that the high ranking officials in the SNP at the time of the second world war actually supported Hitler and his ilk, so it’s a fair estimation that the apple hasn’t fallen far from the tree in this regard.

http://www.boycottthesnp.com/nicola-sturgeon-politician-less-useful-bit-dog-shit/

 

 

NIGEL Farage hit out at the SNP and First Minister Nicola Sturgeon during a speech in the US, appearing to liken the Nationalists to the Nazis.

Mr Farage took aim at the SNP and Ms Sturgeon during a speech at conservative thinktank the Heritage Foundation, in which he focused mainly on immigration and Britain leaving the EU.

...Mr Farage described First Minister Ms Sturgeon as ‘that ghastly woman north of Hadrian’s Wall’, while also describing the SNP as ‘a party who are nationalists and socialists at the same time’. He later repeated the term, adding: “I couldn’t resist it.”
 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/uk/nigel-farage-likens-snp-to-nazis-in-us-speech-1-3831829

 

You can choose the company you keep, Neil.

 

[LJS]

Hey Neil, is this how you see us?

Is that you on the cover, Comfy?

Shame they missed out the deep-fried Mars bar & the bottle of Buckfast!

 

Check out @TheEconomist's Tweet:

 

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

As far as I'm aware, Sturgeon has to state the obvious.....Scotland is a Country.....because people keep putting it to her that some city in England also voted remain.

PMSL - blood and soil!!!

Being "a country" means absolutely fuck all to a civic campaign for independence, which is based *solely* on self-determination.

History means fuck all towards 'civic'. Invoking that country's past as a blood and spoil nation is to invoke blood and soil.

In the civic world, London has *exactly* the same rights of self determination as Scotland.

In the blood and soil world, Scotland's history as a blood and soil nation means something extra.

What don't you understand about "scotland is a country" meaning fuck all to 'civic'?

 

17 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Its an obvious response to what seems a pretty silly question. I've seen her asked it a lot and that is her stock answer.

It's an obvious blood and soil response.

 

17 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

Unprompted by dumb questions, her current line of the type of Country she wants Scotland to be is the exact opposite of the picture her haters want to paint.

So why does she keep invoking blood and soil?

If she doesn't mean blood and soil she should stop going on about it.

And you shouldn't be so fucking thick to be blind to it.

 

 

[eFestivals]

17 hours ago, comfortablynumb1910 said:

So apart from their height, can you pick up on this Neil when you have a mo.

Either way it will make your own view clear and prevent any misrepresentation.

Im not talking about the eejits who exist on both sides, I'm interested in your own personal view on this.

she's a blood and soil nationalist, same as Hilter. Each time she says "Scotland is a country" she proves it.

There's a lot of other differences, tho.

No doubt you'll try to pretend that's bollocks, but first you'll have to tell me what the 'civic' is in "Scotland is a country".

[eFestivals]

16 hours ago, LJS said:

I've told you clearly every time you've asked.

You never once have.

 

 

16 hours ago, LJS said:

Here's someone else to tell you - hes  Associate Professor of Development Studies in the Department of International Development at the LSE  (or was when this was written whcih was jsut before the referendum but nothing has changed since to make it any less true/.

That merely gives his opinion on Scottish indy as a whole. It may or may not be right.

Nothing of what he says addresses the specific thing of Sturgeon saying "Scotland is a country" or what it might mean.

by you posting this irrelevant bollocks,, you're either showing you're too thick to understand what's being discussed, or you get it and you're trying to deflect with stuff that doesn't address what's been raised. Only you know if you're mindnumbingly thick or trying to deflect (and if you think it's neither, that's because you're mindnumbingly thick).

I don't think you're that thick. So I can only conclude you know there's no lie you won't push for the glory of Scotland ... which is back to that blood and soil (more than civic, anyway), this time from you.

 

16 hours ago, LJS said:

Or how about our old pal, Billy Bragg

Or Here's Alex Massie in the Spectator  - no friend of the SNP (my emphasis)

I guess they'll all be wrong & you'll be right.

How about you show you've brain enough to address the specific doing of Sturgeon, deflector?

What is the 'civic' within "Scotland is a nation"?

[LJS]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You never once have.

 

 

That merely gives his opinion on Scottish indy as a whole. It may or may not be right.

Nothing of what he says addresses the specific thing of Sturgeon saying "Scotland is a country" or what it might mean.

by you posting this irrelevant bollocks,, you're either showing you're too thick to understand what's being discussed, or you get it and you're trying to deflect with stuff that doesn't address what's been raised. Only you know if you're mindnumbingly thick or trying to deflect (and if you think it's neither, that's because you're mindnumbingly thick).

I don't think you're that thick. So I can only conclude you know there's no lie you won't push for the glory of Scotland ... which is back to that blood and soil (more than civic, anyway), this time from you.

 

How about you show you've brain enough to address the specific doing of Sturgeon, deflector?

What is the 'civic' within "Scotland is a nation"?

Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement. You may agree or disagree. As a statement it has nothing either civic or ethnic about it. Just as saying "this is a bowl of soup"  doesn't tell you if it's tomato or lentil. 

You have to ask "what sort of soup?" Or "what sort of nation?"

The answer to the second question contains no blood & no soil.

[LJS]

Here's a chance for you to make some money, Neil.

"William Hill first bookies to back Yes vote for Indyref2"

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/william-hill-first-bookies-to-back-yes-vote-for-indyref2-1-4370963

[LJS]

Yes poll win would put Scotland in EU fast-lane, academics claim

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15103162.Yes_poll_win_would_put_Scotland_in_EU_fast_lane/

 

They're talking bollocks says mam who runs festival  website.

[eFestivals]

43 minutes ago, LJS said:

Scotland is a nation (I'm sure you used to say country) is a simple statement.

It is.

But that's not how sturgeon uses it. :rolleyes:

Deflection, again.

She uses it to claim a greater right of self-determination. Even comfy mentioned it above.

There's no greater right of self-determination due to history, unless you recognise the blood and soil ancient nation as meaningful.

You don't half talk some bollocks in trying to deflect away from the truth.

[eFestivals]

3 minutes ago, LJS said:

Yes poll win would put Scotland in EU fast-lane, academics claim

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15103162.Yes_poll_win_would_put_Scotland_in_EU_fast_lane/

 

They're talking bollocks says mam who runs festival  website.

academics claim, while the EU writes the Scottish Govt letters making clear it's bollocks.