The Dirty Independence Question

[Comfy Bean]

On the subject of comedy ...

This made me laugh today. Well laugh or cringe...

Some of our fellow countrymen who reckon we are indeed better together and in the event of an independent Scotland they are offski to Wales.

In the interest of balance, I realise there are plenty of zoomers on both sides.

[LJS]

came across this tonight

This is a packed hall in Glasgow listening respectfully to 6 speakers - 3 from each campaign -followed by questions - again all conducted in a civilised manner.

It serves as a balance to the nutters above & shows there is genuine interest in this debate & an ability to debate issues that are absolutely central to the future of Scotland without insulting each other.

Incidentally, of the 6 speakers, i was most impressed with the Green & the Conservative. Labour & SNP were the least convincing ... I'm sure others would view it differently.

There is a great question where the panel are asked to make the case for the other side - the Tory won that one hands down.

Watching this is not compulsory - I have just posted it as an example of the sort of debate that is going on within Scotland.

Fortunately the chaps from the video above were unable to make this debate:(

[LJS]

It's only a poll.....but

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/referendum-race-on-knife-edge-as-no-support-slides-1-3382125

[Comfy Bean]

It's only a poll.....but

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/referendum-race-on-knife-edge-as-no-support-slides-1-3382125

It`s only a bookies.... but Ladbrokes have cut the price on YES 6 times in the past 4 weeks. The no`s still have it but there appears to be a bit of momentum and the debate is certainly still a live one. Long way to go but if King Salmond is on the shoulder of the no`s with a week to go then he will probably need to press them trews !

This is also only a poll and I didn`t personally count anything but I post this with momentum in mind. No`s still out in front......

The No campaign's lead in the Poll of Polls headline figures :

Sep 2013 - 20.2%

Sep 2013 - 20.0%

Sep 2013 - 18.4%

Oct 2013 - 17.9%

Oct 2013 - 17.5%

Oct 2013 - 17.4%

Nov 2013 - 17.5%

Dec 2013 - 17.1%

Dec 2013 - 16.3%

Dec 2013 - 16.2%

Dec 2013 - 15.8%

Jan 2014 - 14.2%

Jan 2014 - 14.8%

Feb 2014 - 14.8%

Feb 2014 - 14.7%

Feb 2014 - 15.1%

Feb 2014 - 13.6%

Feb 2014 - 14.0%

Mar 2014 - 14.0%

Mar 2014 - 14.3%

Mar 2014 - 14.3%

Mar 2014 - 13.6%

Mar 2014 - 12.9%

Mar 2014 - 13.0%

Mar 2014 - 12.5%

Apr 2014 - 12.6%

Apr 2014 - 12.7%

Apr 2014 - 12.5%

Apr 2014 - 11.9%

Apr 2014 - 11.5%

[Comfy Bean]

And my bedroom is currently ruled by a coalition who got no votes from my bedroom.

Scotland is getting better representation than I am. Independence for Neil, "FREEEEEDOM" (said in the obligatory aussie accent ).

Serious question : IF..... we were starting with a blank page, some would say we are with elections not till 2016 as you know, who would get your vote to best represent your hopes and values for a better and fairer society.

Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg & Danny Alexander

OR

Salmond, Swinney, Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie

I have tried not to load the dice here. I reckon they are the 4 main players leading either side of my options.

[eFestivals]

The difference between Scotland & the areas you mention, is that Scotland is a Nation

Northumbria is as much of a nation as Scotland, and includes bits of Scotland.

Care to tell me how come Northumbria couldn't do the same as Scotland, and claim part of Scotland too?

(note: 'couldn't', not "why isn't it")

The simple fact is that (from what you've said here) all of your reasons for supporting 'yes' all flow from the idea that "Scotland is a nation". If that notion is taken away, so is your support for yes.

And so all you have in support of independence is a notion that "Scotland is better than everywhere else".

You're allowed to think that of course, but it's not true.

& as such has the right to self government if it wishes. There has been an independence movement for many years. To the best of my knowledge, there is nothing comparable in any regions of England.

That's because we're not pathetic nationalists who like to believe ourselves better than everyone else as the result of an arbitrary line in the sand and some self-serving propaganda.

If England was as nuttily nationalists as Scotland is, then UKIP would stand a chance of winning in England just as they stand a good chance of winning in Scotland.

What part of the nationalist methodology is passing you by? The "all of our problems is the fault of them over there" bit, or the "only our nation has the good ideas" bit?

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

Cornwall has an independence movement. Small and noone takes it seriously, but then that was the case about the Scottish independence movement 10 years ago.

the Scottish Islands have an independence movement too ... luckily for Salmond it's not very big, but the same logic applies to their right of independence as Scotland is using for itself, and of course all of the oil is the Islands' and not Scotland's.

If those islands were to want independence in the future, then the rank hypocrisy of the SNP and most yes voters would soon be exposed - because an iScotland without the oil would be royally financially fucked.

[eFestivals]

I just love how you missed out the bit where I made it clear I don't think a cut in Corp tax would help the poor. Guess that didn't suit your argument. A tiny bit pathetic.

so what you're saying is that an iScotland would have more social justice and that's why you're voting yes, but that there's not a jot of social justice within any part of the official independence campaign - probably because there's not actually the electoral support for that social justice (otherwise it would be used to win votes!).

Hmmm, I spot a contradiction.

[eFestivals]

i'll end with a little tip - repeating the same thing again does not make it any more true or convincing.

words that apply no less to the man who cannot spot that all nationalists use the same methodology.

Vote SNP, and help UKIP spread its message. Those foreigners are always more stupid than us, eh?

[eFestivals]

The scrapping of the bedroom tax will certainly help the poorest / most venerable in society. The Scottish Govt has been making money available to our local authorities for a while now and paying the difference in rent through discretionary housing payments.

That's a Westminster policy, as it seems to be passing people by.

The same discretionary money that the SNP is given by Westminster to hand out within Scotland is also being given by Westminster directly to local authorities within England.

I'm not supporting the bedroom tax, and I'm not really much of a supporter for the smoke and mirrors trick of these discretionary payments, but don't go thinking that these payments within Scotland is largesse by the SNP.

It's not, it's 100% Westminster policy.

On the Corporation Tax, I agree that this will be a decision for us all to think about in 2016 ( possibly ). It`s not the sole thing that the Indy vote is about.

It's not the sole thing. In fact it's a no-thing.

And yet it's being used to get people on-side for indy. It's all kicking off around the CBI right now, because (unsurprisingly) big cross-border businesses don't want the extra business costs that indy would cause it, while the yes-ers big-up 'Business for Scotland' as somehow more meaningful when it's small businesses already counting the extra cash of that Corp tax cut.

[eFestivals]

Some good points there. I agree that the SNP have done a pretty good job & have a better track record in addressing inequality than either of the last Westminster Governments.

And yet (at least some of) the "track record in addressing inequality" that you're crediting the SNP with is the direct policy of those hated Etonite Tories.

You couldn't make it up ... oh, too late, you already have.

Neil seems to think that the SNP are to the right of New Labour (If he doesn't I'm sure he will correct me)

In many aspects they definitely are.

We could argue around the rest, and what we'd end up concluding is that whatever the SNP are, it's not a left-leaning party. Scotland is as bereft of that as England is.

The sad thing for me is that we can even have that debate. Disillusionment with the Labour party is a big part of why we have got to where we are today.

It's in words like these that the folly of this vote is exposed.

It is not a vote for a change of govt, it's a vote for a much bigger change. And yet people like you are approaching it in the same way as a general election, about getting the govt you want.

Using that basis (don't prove yourself dumb by taking this as literal, please!), what you're voting for is a permanent dictatorship because it's an irreversible vote.

The notion that in an independent Scotland Scottish Labour, freed from the need to appease English Daily Mail readers. might just rediscover its Socialist roots is not too far- fetched.

and yet the notion that a left wing party has support in Scotland is very far-fetched, as every election get to show - and particularly in the SG elections, where PR gives every vote full meaning.

What if I thought that change was achievable in the UK? It's a hypothetical question but it would certainly increase the chances of me voting No.

I'd say it's massively more likely than in an iScotland.

iScotland will spend the next few decades finding its (political) feet as an indy country, in a power-struggle by the newly empowered iScotland politicians, and any wider ideological issues will get lost within that.

[eFestivals]

It's only a poll.....but

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/referendum-race-on-knife-edge-as-no-support-slides-1-3382125

If you want the biggest laugh of all, find the Guardian version of this story and then read the reader comments. What you'll see is that the first part of the discussion turns into a "if Scotland goes indy, do we get to stay UK citizens?" thing.

And if you read between the lines, what is being said by many yes supporters is this....

"We can safely vote for indy, because if it goes tits up it's OK, we can all move to England".

Mixed in amongst it are claims that there's nothing positive about the union.

Priceless!

[eFestivals]

It`s only a bookies.... but Ladbrokes have cut the price on YES 6 times in the past 4 weeks.

don't go mugging yourself over bookies odds.

They don't reflect the chances of any particular result of the referendum, they only reflect how bookies make their money by covering off the bets on one side with bets for the other.

That aside, the support for yes is growing, but mostly because as is always the case anywhere you care to look, the electorate are proving themselves too stupid to be making the decision.

There's plenty of good reasons to vote yes, but rarely are those being expressed as why someone might vote yes. Instead, it's normally because of the bullshit by Alex/SNP/white paper, which are being treated as fact that's yet to happen.

[eFestivals]

Serious question : IF..... we were starting with a blank page, some would say we are with elections not till 2016 as you know, who would get your vote to best represent your hopes and values for a better and fairer society.

Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg & Danny Alexander

OR

Salmond, Swinney, Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie

I have tried not to load the dice here. I reckon they are the 4 main players leading either side of my options.

I'm not Scottish or resident in Scotland, so it's not a choice I have to make. As I've already said in this thread, if I was having to make the choice, they'd be a lot to tempt me to vote yes - but because I'm detached from it, I'm able to step away from the temptation to tell the tories to fuck off, and see the bigger picture instead.

If the tories weren't in power in Westminster, would 'yes' win? Very unlikely, I think. And if that's indeed the case, many voters in Scotland are being very dumb.

Anyway, to address your question...

I wouldn't vote for any one of Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg & Danny Alexander.

Prior to the white paper, I had a greater respect for Salmond than I did the names just above.

Now? He's Nigel Farange, in all aspects except being anti-EU.

He's playing on all of the same fears (which makes each mention of 'project fear' so funny) as nationalists always do, and knows that the idea of Scotland as a nation is a weakly supported one within Scotland - and so has resorted to bullshit to try and get the electoral support he needs for his own benefit, and is quite happy to lead the Scottish people with bullshit knowing there is no promised land at the end of it (aside for people like him), but just more of the same.

[eFestivals]

If you want the biggest laugh of all, find the Guardian version of this story and then read the reader comments. What you'll see is that the first part of the discussion turns into a "if Scotland goes indy, do we get to stay UK citizens?" thing.

And if you read between the lines, what is being said by many yes supporters is this....

"We can safely vote for indy, because if it goes tits up it's OK, we can all move to England".

Mixed in amongst it are claims that there's nothing positive about the union.

Priceless!

Just off the back of this, how can 'no' guarantee a win?

Simply to state that anyone on the electoral role in Scotland in voting day loses their UK citizenship if Scotland votes yes.

The only way that would fail would be if the people of Scotland told themselves that it was a lie.... but as there's only comedy value in this angle I'll drop this one here.

And so you see, I don't think the people of Scotland really want to stand on their own feet, what they really want is the best of both worlds.

But don't we all? Shame none of us get it, eh?

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

Morning all, I shall be responding to some of the above in a wee while. in the meantime I! will leave you with Neil Sedaka, looking strangely like David Cameron!

[LJS]

Serious question : IF..... we were starting with a blank page, some would say we are with elections not till 2016 as you know, who would get your vote to best represent your hopes and values for a better and fairer society.

Cameron, Osbourne, Clegg & Danny Alexander

OR

Salmond, Swinney, Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie

I have tried not to load the dice here. I reckon they are the 4 main players leading either side of my options.

Jings! Hard to get worked up into a frenzy over any of the above.

I would certainly take the Scottish lot as better than the UK Tory/Libs, partly because they just seem to be better at doing their job, but also because they include Patrick Harvie. If we do get independence I would sincerely hope that the Scottish Greens get enough support to have at least some influence

That may seem wishful thinking but, remember, they did have 7 MSP's after the 2003 election.

[LJS]

My responses to Neil's various points.

Nationhood

There is nothing to stop the people of Northumbria seeking self government.

A rather odd guy called Stuart Hill has bought a tiny wee island in the Sheltand Isles & declared it to be the sovereign State of Forvik.

Whether the Nation of Scotland is recognised by the democratic republic of Neil's bedroom s hardly the point. The majority of Scots think we are a nation & politicians on all sides refer to us as a nation, so whether in some technical sense we are or not is pretty irrelevant.

You stated "all of your reasons for supporting 'yes' all flow from the idea that "Scotland is a nation" You have misunderstood me if that is what you think, replace the word "all" with "part" & you have got it - I have given a number of other reasons.

Ukip

This quote from the fine singer Karine Polwart kind of demonstrates how Neil can link UKiP to the SNP:

THURSDAY night. BBC Question Time is on telly. I’m venting a week’s worth of rage on Twitter, while nursing a tumbler of special offer white wine.

A panellist asks: “Do we want to be a self-governing, democratic nation that determines her own destiny?” I shudder. The questioner is UKIP leader, Nigel Farage.

So, superficially, its easy to link the two. Karine continues...

It matters who asks this question, and why. For while self-governance is grand as a principle, what matters are the values, aspirations and concrete policies implied in the “destiny” bit, how the new “we” that political independence would create would do things differently.

Now I would certainly hope that iScotland's values, aspirations & policies will be rather different from UKip's isolationist position.

on the subject of UKip you said "If England was as nuttily nationalists as Scotland is, then UKIP would stand a chance of winning in England just as they stand a good chance of winning in Scotland"

in today's news:

An ICM poll for the Telegraph found Ukip three points below Labour on 30% with the Tories trailing on 22% and the Liberal Democrats on 8%,

Meanwhile, in Scotland

Ukip, which polled 5 per cent in 2009 in Scotland, is now on 7 per cent ahead of the European Parliament elections

Now these are not from the same poll, (not all polls break down into Scottish figures) But I don;t think the general picture painted by them is misleading.

[eFestivals]

If we do get independence I would sincerely hope that the Scottish Greens get enough support to have at least some influence

why do you think that independence would change the support the various parties currently get under PR in the SP? By all sensible reasoning, the votes for the independent SG shouldn't much change from what Scotland has voted for in the devolution SG.

It will of course change tho. That change will be driven by the hunt for the promises of independence which are not delivered no matter which party is in power, much the same as the tory victories in the UK are driven by a hunt for the social democracy which is not delivered by Labour.

The point, in case you've missed it, is that the SG will fail to deliver on expectations and hopes no differently to Westminster. That's how it works in *all* democracies.

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

The majority of Scots think we are a nation

not yet they don't, that seems to be passing you by.

If they did, the vote would already be won.

politicians on all sides refer to us as a nation, so whether in some technical sense we are or not is pretty irrelevant.

Politicians want votes. There's votes to be gained by saying 'nation' from the Little Scotlanders, but there's few votes to be lost by it.

You stated "all of your reasons for supporting 'yes' all flow from the idea that "Scotland is a nation" You have misunderstood me if that is what you think, replace the word "all" with "part" & you have got it - I have given a number of other reasons.

Your use of "nation" shows where your thinking is.

If it's not that, you're mugging yourself.

Now I would certainly hope that iScotland's values, aspirations & policies will be rather different from UKip's isolationist position.

The policies are different. The motivations of voters are the same, and the methodology of how that sup[port of gained is the same.

In short, the Nazis could teach both UKIP and the SNP little for how to exploit the gullible.

in today's news:

... the nutty nationalists conned by "it's all those other people's fault" are greater in Scotland than the UK as a whole.

That's not new news.

Meanwhile, stop showing your ignorance and instead do the tiniest bit of study to see why UKIP has that support - and you'll find it's almost identical to why you'll support the SNP by voting yes.

Meanwhile, in Scotland

Now these are not from the same poll, (not all polls break down into Scottish figures) But I don;t think the general picture painted by them is misleading.

Spot on ... people all over the country (that's the UK, for those who can't quite grasp what a country is ) are looking for alternatives to the traditional parties, and they'll vote for anything which isn't those parties - but not because they support the alternative they'll vote for.

You want to think of Scotland as democratically unique, and yet it's the world according to nationalists anywhere. You'll find the same ignorance about policies by the supporters of both, you'll find the same "it doesn't hurt if I vote for them" from the supporters of both, and you'll find the same emu act from the supporters of both over both party's blame of all the problems on those nasty evil foreigners.

And when you get in to the policies? The rich come first with UKIP and the rich come first with the SNP - cos the only promise of the SNP is more money for the rich!

Edited April 21, 2014 by eFestivals

[LJS]

responses continued...

Scottish Islands

as far as I am concerned, If they wanted independence they are as entitled to it as anyone else. I lived in Shetland for nearly 10 years & it is my sense that, although there have been attempts to get an independence movement going, there really is not a serious appetite for it.

Social Justice

There is a general commitment to Social justice plus a number of specific measures detailed in the white paper. Rather than cut & paste reams of stuff, here is a link http://www.yesscotland.net/answers/will-independence-address-unfairness-our-society

As I seem to have to repeat on every issue,these are the proposed policies of t he SNP - other parties will have their own proposals & I shall be able to choose the ones that are closest to my beliefs.

I've also pointed out before that this is a decision for the long term - I don't expect utopia from day one ( I would guess we could realistically expect utopia around mid October 2026)

Oh & on bedroom tax whilst the Money to mitigate the worst effects of this ill thought out propsal, the commitment to abolish it is a part of the Snp White Paper.

And I don't know where you got this from "And yet (at least some of) the "track record in addressing inequality" that you're crediting the SNP with is the direct policy of those hated Etonite Tories."

Unless you count introducing a divisive & unfair bedroom tax - then allocating a few quid to make it a bit less unfair as addressing inequality

Democracy etc

You accuse me of "approaching it in the same way as a general election, about getting the govt you want."

No, I'm not. I want a government that better reflects the will of the Scottish people.

From all the parties on offer, I would most like to see the Green Party in power - & that ain't going to happen.

you then go on to say "and yet the notion that a left wing party has support in Scotland is very far-fetched, as every election get to show - and particularly in the SG elections, where PR gives every vote full meaning."

Well, of course, one of the limitations of democracy is that you can only choose from what is put in front. For most of the lifetime of the Scottish Parliament there has not been a credible left wing option. For a brief time it appeared the Scottish Socialist Party appeared to offer that and indeed won 6 seats in the 2003 election. They were however too dependent on Tommy Sheridan & when he crashed & burned so did they. I don't know what happened that year but we also got 7 Green MSP's.

You don't know Scottish politics if you do not believe there is significant support for left wing policies.

Cybernats

Yup there are some crazy people saying some crazy things, on both sides - my sense is there are more on the Yes side but you won't have to go far to find Cyberbrits either.

As far as I see it they are more likely to turn folk off.

It is a bit of a fact of modern life - I had a very brief look att eh comments on the Guardians peice about the UKip rise in the polls - a few nutters there.

As for your suggestion that if rUK were to withdraw UK citizenship from Scots it would guarantee a "no" vote, I think you may be right in suggesting it would not be believed. The NO campaign seems to to be in a bit of a "boy who cried wolf" scenario.

I have no doubt some of the concerns they raise are genuine ... the pensions thing is one, but instead of focussing on a few areas they have had a scattergun approach auto-rubbishing every claim the Yes side makes. Even if every Yes claim IS rubbish, it is not sensible tactics.

[LJS]

In short, the Nazis could teach both UKIP and the SNP little for how to exploit the gullible.

it's usually a sure sign someone is losing an argument when they bring the Nazis into it.

Unnecessary & uncalled for

[LJS]

the only promise of the SNP is more money for the rich!

Help ma boab! All those pages in the white paper ( was it 650 or 670?) & they could only manage one measly promise.

& they call themselves politicians

Look a wee bit harder & I'm sure you find at least a couple more

[eFestivals]

Jings! Hard to get worked up into a frenzy over any of the above.

I would certainly take the Scottish lot as better than the UK Tory/Libs, partly because they just seem to be better at doing their job

The SNP don't lie to you then?

Or will you happily state that the SNP have told Scotland clearly that in 2012 Scotland 'spunged' off the English?

(and that it'll be the same in 2013, and 2014.... what happens in 2015 will be interesting, cos will 'England' give Scotland money that iScotland says it won't pay back?

And it gets even more interesting in 2016, when iScotland will have a bigger deficit than rUK but little chance of rUK financial support, and (under any of the white paper currency plans) more expensive borrowing costs than rUK.

Why do so few in Scotland know these Scottish Govt / SNP-agreed-with facts?

But don't worry, eh? In 2017* Scotland will suddenly be flooded with money, £300k for each true Scotman.

(* that's if the oil estimates unique to the SNP but not the oil industry all come true).

[LJS]

http://www.bsa-30.natcen.ac.uk/read-the-report/devolution/trends-in-national-identity.aspx