thought for the day... again... capitalism? dying? dead?

[eFestivals]

Your day to day life and choices seems to be very similar to mine...

yep, that's blindingly obvious. We both have to operate in the environment as it exists, there is no other way.

There's a big difference between going along with it happily as you do, and railing against it and wanting and trying to change it.

You live in a house, consuming all the earth's natural resources at a rate greater than we can sustain. While consuming levels of food greater than we can sustain. Using things like computers and servers sucking power and in relation encouraging others to use there computers sucking power and resources that is way beyond sustainability. You ride on transport. You have mobile phones.... etc etc...

Your life is greatly similar than mine as is your impact. Maybe I am slightly ahead on consumption but it doesn't take much of a mirror to show how you are something of hypocrite.

And what do you do other than moan on here?

I recognise the need for change, and push to bring it about thru action.

That's the complete opposite of you, who scoops up all they can for themselves without thought of the effect it's having on others, and who is only willing to move from that once everyone else has.

If you like, I am mentally stood alongside those people camped outside St Pauls, while you are the one demanding that they "get a job instead" while failing to recognise that there's no job for them even if that's what they wanted.

If everyone in this country had your unmoving attitude (where you'd only change when everyone else did) then this country would still be slave trading, it would still be openly and blatantly racist and homophobic, the poor would still be in workhouses, and any other regressive ideas you can think of.

The world only moves when people push it.

You refuse to push. You're just like Posh Spice, electing for the easy option because you want what you want without regard for any possible consequences.

The world only moves when people push it. I will keep on pushing it.

[eFestivals]

Care to expand because in the past you have said you thought it would be pointless.

Godwin's law has never stopped a true fact being true.

[eFestivals]

Care to expand because in the past you have said you thought it would be pointless.

No, I've said putting myself forwards for election would be pointless, and that getting involved with any of the dominant parties would be pointless.

It's obviously news to you, but those things are not the only political things that exist in the world.

[fred quimby]

You're just like Posh Spice,

[fred quimby]

Godwin's law has never stopped a true fact being true.

[eFestivals]

But in the end... You are not out there stood next to them... You are on here consuming natural resources preaching to the largely converted while living your life like the rest of the western world...

You are making no difference Neil...

25 to 30 years ago I'd have been there. I WAS there (not precisely at St Pauls, but making similar protests).

Were you? Ever?

Or was it exactly the same for you back in your youth as now, that there's nothing in for it for you personally and so it's not your concern?

Today, for a number of reasons I'm not, but they have my absolute support. They don't get your support tho, cos if they get any sort of victory then that affects you negatively, and you've made absolutely clear that there's nothing you'll support that affects you personally in a negative way.

So, if their desires came up for a vote, they'd get mine but not yours. So if nothing else there's the potential for my attitude to change thinjgs, but no potential for change from you at all.

It's not perfect; I'm not claiming any perfection. But I am claiming an honest desire to change things for the better for ALL people without my personal wants and desires getting in the way.

(and that "change things for the better for ALL people" means a negative effect on me. Bring it on I say, while you say 'no, never'.).

You meanwhile put your own wants top of the tree, and fuck everyone else.

If you can't see any difference between us, you're merely proving how dense you are. Change comes from within; there's nothing within you.

[eFestivals]

So what are you doing ?

as a generality, supporting change.

For the specifics, you'll have to remain as ignorant about that as you are about everything else being discussed here.

[eFestivals]

But utterly utterly laughable and pointless.

It might be laughable and pointless to you.

Personally, I don't find it laughable that the west operates a system that condemns more people to death in any single year than either Hitler or Stalin each managed in their lifetimes by the systems they operated, and I don't find it pointless to push for changes in the world to stop that.

But hey, I guess that's the difference between me and you.

[kaosmark2]

he's not telling people who think there 'could' be a better way that it's all a waste of time and, and we might might as well not worry about anything, because somehow everything will be alright...

....possibly

what anyone may or may not be doing, in the context of this discussion, is irrelevant. If someone says something that is worth considering, it's as futile as futile can be to simply respond "well, what are you doing?". Some people debate things to actually go through a process... to talk things through.

You seem to take everything as a swipe at you, (which is where it ends up due to your defensive stance... you know, self fulfilling prophecies, etc...), or you start off by attacking other people's views, without actually acknowledging what's being said

[fred quimby]

So, if their desires came up for a vote, they'd get mine but not yours. So if nothing else there's the potential for my attitude to change thinjgs, but no potential for change from you at all.

[fred quimby]

It might be laughable and pointless to you.

Personally, I don't find it laughable that the west operates a system that condemns more people to death in any single year than either Hitler or Stalin each managed in their lifetimes by the systems they operated, and I don't find it pointless to push for changes in the world to stop that.

But hey, I guess that's the difference between me and you.

[eFestivals]

Not putting words in Barrys mouth but that was what he was getting at. If there was a votes for their "desires" (there are many) then he would vote that way. Until that day he'll fit in the system we have just as you and me are doing.

But he wouldn't - he's made clear that his own interests come first, talking about "the national interest" and not all humanity's interest.

He believes he's a right to everything he currently has, and that none of what he has has been obtained in an unfair manner at the expense of others, and so no one has any right to take any of it away via any means.

[kaosmark2]

accurate... as in he'll be alright?

[eFestivals]

Now we are all Hitlers

Do you have the stats on how the system we both live in kill more people in a year.

You're as capable as googling as I am.

I see the difference between them and there is a difference.

Yeah, one system is labelled as 'evil' while the other is just a fluffy little kitten wanting to be stroked.

Or alternatively, both are systems that condemn huge numbers of people to savage and unnecessary deaths while those controlling the systems don't much care because they're getting the personal result they're wanting.

There really is fuck all difference for those who have died as the result of either system. In both cases those deaths are unnecessary, in both cases the outcome in other places make those deaths an acceptable part of that system to the people benefitting by that system.

[eFestivals]

Another poster has already covered how you are clearly not listening to me on this.

I wa

I was certainly listening when you spoke about how you'd support the 'national interest' but not humanity's interest, and I was certainly listening when you said that you'd support nothing that would have a negative impact on your material position because you believe that all you have has come to you by just your own efforts.

It might surprise you to know it, but those things are 100% incompatible with what I and others have been saying.

At best you are not joining up your thoughts into a coherent theme, and at worst you're simply a self-centred c**t - and you've posted far far more here that points to the later than the former.

No you are not perfect. You are the same as everyone else.

If that were the case then this discussion wouldn't be happening - the world would already be in full agreement, and the changes would have already taken place.

[kaosmark2]

You're as capable as googling as I am.

[fred quimby]

You're as capable as googling as I am.

[eFestivals]

Weak comment. The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim.

Oh FFS.

I tend to take an interest in such things, which is why I know what I said is the case.

Taking an interest in such things doesn't mean that any person who does take an interest in such things is an equal to google as a repository of references.

To provide the references I'd have to google. As it's him who wants the references why the fuck can't he google? Is education something that other people give him because he's too dumb to educate himself himself even when there's a world of references at his fingertips?

For the too-stupid-to-google-for-themselves-types:-

http://www.starvation.net/

http://www.bread.org/hunger/global/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_die_of_starvation_each_day

http://malarianomore.org.uk/malaria?gclid=CNLqpafElawCFYEZ4Qodzksgmg#

Do I have to do the maths from them too?

The estimates vary but whichever one you choose the numbers are greater than the deliberately caused deaths of Hitler or Stalin within their lifetimes.

[eFestivals]

Not really what you said as one lot were people (Hiltler Stalin) and the other is a system, so very very different thing.

so neither Hitler or Stalin were working systems that were resulting in the deaths of people under those systems?

Plus a system does not kill people, people do.

all people operate under a system of some sort.

Millions die under any system we have had over the years.

And none of those millions have to. We *CHOOSE* to let them die.

[fred quimby]

As it's him who wants the references why the fuck can't he google? Is education something that other people give him because he's too dumb to educate himself himself even when there's a world of references at his fingertips?

Edited November 1, 2011 by fred quimby

[fred quimby]

so neither Hitler or Stalin were working systems

[fred quimby]

And none of those millions have to. We *CHOOSE* to let them die.

[eFestivals]

No they were people

they were people who implemented a system that caused huge numbers to die.

How are those people who are implementing an unfettered capitalist system that causes even greater numbers to die doing anything any different?

To the people who have died under either system, it certainly makes no difference at all.

The people at the top of the chain of Nazism/Stalinism/Capitalism all believed they were doing good for the world. Platitudes like those are meaningless to the victims of each system. Even the methods of each are meaningless to the victims; their deaths over-ride all other things.

[eFestivals]

Not really as yours don't add up. Maybe it's back to school for you still can't make it over 60 million people a year

what doesn't add up is your ability to discern what I actually said from what you're trying to present as what I'd said.

But never mind, eh? Who cares if your way of working things makes me wrong by a few million? You pointing out that I'm wrong is far more important than those tens of millions of deaths.

[eFestivals]

Not all of course, we can't save everyone dying, but I assume you are only talking about certain things killing people (e.g. malaria, although looks like we now have the answer to that one with drugs)

we've had the drugs answer for malaria for decades.

So, the question has to be asked: why are huge numbers still dying from malaria?