Football 2011-2012

[kaosmark2]

The EA Sports stand?

[worm]

It's the fact that it's Liverpool who have done this which makes it seem poor, because they're a team which much more is expected off.

[eFestivals]

73 cup final. Biggest upset of all time. We put out Man City, Arsenal and Leeds along the way. We also just avoided relugation to the third division that year.

unlike you, I actually remember it, rather than remember the history lesson.

But there you go, you prove my point - you think that was 'big'. Liverpool have done better and you think that's shit.

98 playoff final. Most entertaining final ever played at Wembley. 8-7 on penalties after drawing 3-3 in regular time and 4-4 after extra time. That was a canny big failure. It was also excellent to be involved in.

And again, you prove my point - you think that was 'excellent'. Liverpool have done better and you think that's shit.

It's all about perspective. For Liverpool in a traditional sense this season has been pretty poor with the league but excellent in the cups. But for Liverpool against last season's Liverpool this season has been an improvement, and only a fool thought they'd fly very high this year.

What counts now is where this season takes them next season. The signs are very good from the angle of all those excellent chances to score they had but didn't.

I'm undecided as to whether that's really a good sign or a false dawn tho. We'll find out next season.

[pink_triangle]

It's silly willy waving to say it's been a dreadful season. It's not like anyone expected them to win the league or be close to doing that this season. They could have done better of course, but they could have also done far far worse in the cups, cups where they knocked out the biggest teams.

[kaosmark2]

Boro achieved quite lot less than Liverpool have this season. Facts are facts.

But if they had done as much as Liverpool have - a decent league position (for any team aside from L'pool), won one cup and in the final of another - then it would have been considered as a massive thing, a team on the verge of a massive break-thru, ready to challenge the big boys.

It's the fact that it's Liverpool who have done this which makes it seem poor, because they're a team which much more is expected off.

And while that's true, what can't really be denied is that - despite the disappointment of the league position for Liverpool (just Liverpool!) - it's still a step forwards. The league points are just 3 points less than they was at this point last year (hardly a massive failure, even if it's not the hoped-for improvement), while they've won one cup and might win another (which takes winning games just like a good league position does).

It's silly willy waving to say it's been a dreadful season. It's not like anyone expected them to win the league or be close to doing that this season. They could have done better of course, but they could have also done far far worse in the cups, cups where they knocked out the biggest teams.

[kaosmark2]

I dont think expectations were there to win the league but a couple of games in most were predicting top 4. I personally felt it was unrealistic at the time and people were readnig too much into unpredictable early form, but I was defintely in the minority.

[eFestivals]

Obviously, we're talking about Liverpool, not Tranmere. They're shite. They are being run by a dinosaur. Just look at his relationship with the media and what it led to with the Suarez, Evra incident. Look at how badly their midfield plays. Just listen to the innane excuses Dalglish comes out with. Just look at the amount they've spent on garbage. There's no step forward, they've gone backwards.

Hmmm, there's many ways to look at the Suarez/Evra thing. While Liverpool's handling of it was atrocious, there's still the angle that what Evra initially alleged to have happened is not what Evra now says happened, nor is it what Suarez was found guilty of.

That change in allegation makes the original allegation an undisputed lie, and I think that Liverpool got too hung up on the lie aspect when they should have kept their eyes on the bigger picture.

I can't see the likes of fergie being any less robust in defending his players from a lie, even if his manner in dealing with it would no doubt have been better. Then again, he's had constant practice for 25 years in dealing with the media while Kenny hasn't.

Their midfield is better than you're crediting it. Their dominance of games and the goal chances made shows that. The main problem with it I think has been how unsettled it's been by the constant changes in personnel.

Name me any manager who doesn't make innane excuses. ... while Dalglish's have been innane all season, his central point has remained true - that they've (in general) played more than well enough to win the games (we're back to all those unconverted goal chances again).

Not the best signings, very true. But not backwards all the same. A solid step forwards, and a win ratio not so far from the likes of Utd, City, Arsenal, Spurs, & Chelsea (and the only reason Newc are left out of that is because they've played far fewer games).

[eFestivals]

I dont think expectations were there to win the league but a couple of games in most were predicting top 4. I personally felt it was unrealistic at the time and people were readnig too much into unpredictable early form, but I was defintely in the minority.

I can't remember now, but I might have been predicting top 4 for them too - thinking that the chances would be turned into goals. Given their overall dominance in games that wasn't so unreasonable.

But a part of the reason why people were predicting that was because of Arsenal being shit, and Spurs having played a game less after a poor start. With hindsight, both those things warped people's expectations early on.

[eFestivals]

The main thing about Liverpool, is with the performances in the 2nd half of last season, and the money spent in the summer, there should have been substantial improvement. While in actual fact, they've not really improved at all.

haven't they?

I've not totalled it up, but I'd guess that their win percentage this season is much better than last.

It's just the fact that the wins haven't been in the league which make it look bad. Points wise they're three points from where they were this time last year.

[strummer77]

Cups are what fans want for the memories. Stable league position is what determines success long-term.

Edited April 23, 2012 by strummer77

[kaosmark2]

haven't they?

I've not totalled it up, but I'd guess that their win percentage this season is much better than last.

It's just the fact that the wins haven't been in the league which make it look bad. Points wise they're three points from where they were this time last year.

[strummer77]

And there's a psychology factor. Teams aren't afraid to go to Anfield any more. The poor home wins ratio doesn't look good.

Edited April 23, 2012 by strummer77

[kaosmark2]

That's why I said we need both. But Arsenal are coming 3rd/4th regularly and not getting any trophies to show for their (considerable) league consistency. If you're just doing that, there's no point. I love the Champions League and appreciate it is useful for recruiting players to win leagues but its not the be all and end all.

[strummer77]

Smarter is the key thing, Liverpool have gone for young English players who've built a fairly big reputation, which ramps up the cost.

[kaosmark2]

Our failures have nothing to do with other teams being confident. The psychological factors are in our own heads.

As for poor form, how is Harry avoiding all stick? One win in 9 and out of all the cups and no Champions League. Against all the odds they are going to have had a worse season than us!

[kaosmark2]

We have been dumb as an organisation for too long. Unprofessional at the very top, hence the botched defence and handling of Suarez etc.

Until that changes we'll struggle.

[strummer77]

Your new owners are still better than the old ones, even if they're pretty crap.

[pink_triangle]

That's why I said we need both. But Arsenal are coming 3rd/4th regularly and not getting any trophies to show for their (considerable) league consistency. If you're just doing that, there's no point. I love the Champions League and appreciate it is useful for recruiting players to win leagues but its not the be all and end all right now. We need to be challenging for it next season though.

I've been at Anfield when we wrapped up third place on the final day of the season. I've been at Wembley when we've won a cup. The first was meh, the second was amazing. Of course we need CL football in the long-term to be able to sustain those Wembley trips, but cups are important too. Players want medals, they always say that. Players haven't been leaving Arsenal for CL, they've been leaving because they want to win things.

Edited April 23, 2012 by pink_triangle

[kaosmark2]

Arsenal coming 3rd or 4th regularly now may not result in them winning the champions league but it keeps them stable in a position to take advantage when things change. We are in a funny period in european history with 2 outstanding teams and the rest struggling to keep up, but lesser teams like liverpool and porto have won before and lesser teams will probably win it again. If financial fair play is enforced (I suspect it wont be) then Arsenal will be in a great position to take advantage. Your right clebrating a 3rd place isnt exciting but if it gives the foundations to challenge in the future then its worth it.

Players may want medals but I doubt many would turn arsenal for liverpool purely on the basis they are more likely to win a cup. The best players abroad want to play in the champions league more than they want to win an fa cup as this is the highest standard of football. I dont think players leave arsenal purely to win things, another factor is that the wage structure doesnt allow them to earn as much as other top sides.

[eFestivals]

Arsenal coming 3rd or 4th regularly now may not result in them winning the champions league but it keeps them stable in a position to take advantage when things change. We are in a funny period in european history with 2 outstanding teams and the rest struggling to keep up, but lesser teams like liverpool and porto have won before and lesser teams will probably win it again. If financial fair play is enforced (I suspect it wont be) then Arsenal will be in a great position to take advantage. Your right clebrating a 3rd place isnt exciting but if it gives the foundations to challenge in the future then its worth it.

Players may want medals but I doubt many would turn arsenal for liverpool purely on the basis they are more likely to win a cup. The best players abroad want to play in the champions league more than they want to win an fa cup as this is the highest standard of football. I dont think players leave arsenal purely to win things, another factor is that the wage structure doesnt allow them to earn as much as other top sides.

it'll be very interesting to see what happens with RVP this summer, whether he goes or stays. I have an inkling that he'll stay loyal, but if City win the league then perhaps he'll be looking at Nasri and thinking he wants the same.

[The Nal]

it'll be very interesting to see what happens with RVP this summer, whether he goes or stays. I have an inkling that he'll stay loyal, but if City win the league then perhaps he'll be looking at Nasri and thinking he wants the same.

[kaosmark2]

it'll be very interesting to see what happens with RVP this summer, whether he goes or stays. I have an inkling that he'll stay loyal, but if City win the league then perhaps he'll be looking at Nasri and thinking he wants the same.

[worm]

Hmmm, there's many ways to look at the Suarez/Evra thing.

Edited April 23, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

Well Man City have found a way round it by the owners sponsoring it themselves on a stupidly large deal.

I wouldn't be surprised if lots of other teams try similar tactics.

There's all sorts of ways to wangle things to not get stumped by the Financial Fair Play rules.

The obvious easy way is for the parent company of the football club company to pick up lots of the costs (say: stadium maintenance & staffing costs, or part of the players' 'wages' [not necessarily their basic pay]) while keeping all the income within the football club company.

Manipulating where in the company structures particular costs are carried makes no difference to the headline figures at that parent company, but can make a huge difference to how the finances of the club company look.

It could well be the case that Utd had that sort of thing in mind when they moved the parent company to Delaware (which has easy rules on what has to be disclosed [it's a liar's hideout]), tho as it's the Glazers there could be many other reasons for that too, none of them good.

Delaware style hiding isn't really necessary. I know it can be easily done with Chelsea's company structure, as they've done some of that already (about £200M's worth I think, if I'm remembering correctly). And of course the likes of Halls & Shepard mugged Newc fans for years with saying they were putting millions in when they were taking millions out. I doubt it's much different with any of the other clubs in the top half of the table at least, and it's probably the sort of thing any club can easily do.

[kaosmark2]

There's all sorts of ways to wangle things to not get stumped by the Financial Fair Play rules.

The obvious easy way is for the parent company of the football club company to pick up lots of the costs (say: stadium maintenance & staffing costs, or part of the players' 'wages' [not necessarily their basic pay]) while keeping all the income within the football club company.

Manipulating where in the company structures particular costs are carried makes no difference to the headline figures at that parent company, but can make a huge difference to how the finances of the club company look.

It could well be the case that Utd had that sort of thing in mind when they moved the parent company to Delaware (which has easy rules on what has to be disclosed [it's a liar's hideout]), tho as it's the Glazers there could be many other reasons for that too, none of them good.

Delaware style hiding isn't really necessary. I know it can be easily done with Chelsea's company structure, as they've done some of that already (about £200M's worth I think, if I'm remembering correctly). And of course the likes of Halls & Shepard mugged Newc fans for years with saying they were putting millions in when they were taking millions out. I doubt it's much different with any of the other clubs in the top half of the table at least, and it's probably the sort of thing any club can easily do.