Osama Bin Laden is dead

[worm]

what's your point?

[worm]

This illustrates very well just how much of a dick you are.

[strummer77]

He looks happy!

[worm]

Is it just Neil, or do other people here honestly believe that the global news isn't a construction? Do they believe that events occur in reality, as if those creating it on the ground are in no way considerate of the subsequent media output?

I hope I'm just baffled by Neil's seeming ignorance to this fact, but I do feel it prudent to point out that this would have happened with the media in mind. This isn't conspiracy or propaganda, it's simply how the current Empire operates having learned the influence of the media from the past.

Edited May 3, 2011 by worm

[strummer77]

[lifelessfool]

I think I believe he died the other day,I don't really have any reason to doubt that! Yes an election is coming up in 18 months I always find when people bring coincidental timing into the equation it goes wrong.Also did I read somewhere they probably found him through interrogation and use of the good olde waterboarding?I can probably answer this myself, but is this really going to significantly shake up relations between Pakistan and the west?

Also I reckon it was massively illegal, Osama was probably just sat there playing Xbox,I'm sure they could have taken him alive but it made more sense to them to kill him. But like others have stated its far from the end of terrorism, and its significance is fairly limited. Whilst it could be seen as a blessing to Obama, it could haunt him if the US believes the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is over now, yet they remain.

Edited May 3, 2011 by lifelessfool

[worm]

but is this really going to significantly shake up relations between Pakistan and the west?

[eFestivals]

Well i can list you several that dont post here because of you.

I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that it's more than just me which has that effect (what I commented on was one such example, I saw what was posted before it was removed)), which gives me a greater awareness of the situation than yourself.

But explicitly what are you referring to as conspiracy theories? We have the pakistani authorities saying they didnt know he was there and the former pakistani high commissioner saying they did. Shall we start with which is lying and why? Because if the isi knew he was there it would be a bloody big surprise the americans didnt too. Camoron says he had a huge support network in pakistan. Either it materialised overnight or its been there for years. A huge network that the americans knew nothing about. Really? I could believe he's dead or in guantanamo. They managed to take his son alive but a geriatric cowering behind his wife proved too formidable alongside the others they left alive but couldn't take with them.

I think you've answered your own question, but somehow seem more than a little blind to it.

Its not embarrassing to say you dont really understand. We didnt laugh at you when you said interest rates would be in double figures within a year er a year ago did we?

just as we didn't laugh when you said nothing about the tories policies was ideologically driven.

As for understanding or not, I fully understand that the tone of your posts of the last 6 months are driven by your now-embarrassment at that.

[eFestivals]

Neil seems to be suggesting people are thinking he's not dead. Most theories are based around Bin Laden having been dead for a number of years. The timing is just too perfect, 18 months before the presidential elections, support for Obama decreasing.

The timing could be far more 'perfect' than right now too. The simple fact is that any time is a good time - meaning that if someone takes the perspective you've given here it's impossible for them to not side with conspiracy theories, and so reach the conclusion you've given.

From such a perspective, one realistic possibility is denied to the considerations, and only a conspiracy can exist - which is hardly a sound basis for anyone to analyse the available info and reach the truth.

While I don't discount the possibility that it's all bollocks, I don't automatically conclude that it is as some have done here either. On a simple percentage basis it's far less likely to be bollocks than it is truth, and there's things which strongly suggest it's truth while there is only hot air behind the conspiracy ideas.

I'm not sure either way. All i know is it's a good idea to anything coming out of the news with a pinch of salt and I certainly don't believe it's gone down exactly how it's been reported.

well of course it hasn't - the story has changed quite significantly already, mostly because people have been saying things on the basis of nothing (a problem for both the US govt and some people here it seems ).

But if it were a conspiracy, I think it's likely that they'd have done a much better job at getting the story straight. The very fact of a changing story suggests that 'the fog of war' is the cause of that.

[eFestivals]

Drivel. The timing is apt, given America's current narrative relating to Pakistan and its investment in Pakistani affairs.

So I ask again....

What point in time WOULD NOT have been advantageous to the USA for this story to come out?

Simple analysis of that idea gets to show that all times would be good for the USA, making any ideas based on it being advantageous timing worthless.

I haven't mentioned a conspiracy theory.

[eFestivals]

Is it just Neil, or do other people here honestly believe that the global news isn't a construction? Do they believe that events occur in reality

Do you occur in reality? Can your existence be reported as news?

I hope I'm just baffled by Neil's seeming ignorance to this fact

You are very definitely baffled, that much is true.

Amongst other things, you're baffled over the whole idea over what is ignorance, and by that display your own.

but I do feel it prudent to point out that this would have happened with the media in mind.

No shit Sherlock.

[eFestivals]

I think I believe he died the other day,I don't really have any reason to doubt that! Yes an election is coming up in 18 months I always find when people bring coincidental timing into the equation it goes wrong.Also did I read somewhere they probably found him through interrogation and use of the good olde waterboarding?I can probably answer this myself, but is this really going to significantly shake up relations between Pakistan and the west?

Also I reckon it was massively illegal, Osama was probably just sat there playing Xbox,I'm sure they could have taken him alive but it made more sense to them to kill him. But like others have stated its far from the end of terrorism, and its significance is fairly limited. Whilst it could be seen as a blessing to Obama, it could haunt him if the US believes the war in Afghanistan and Iraq is over now, yet they remain.

Nice post.

In a democracy, an election is always coming up.

[Kyelo]

Nobody know what al-Queda have said?

[worm]

What point in time WOULD NOT have been advantageous to the USA for this story to come out?

[worm]

Do you occur in reality? Can your existence be reported as news?

Edited May 4, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

The day after 911 would have been pretty bad.

You said it mate.

I did. But simple analysis is better than your none-at-all.

[eFestivals]

That doesn't matter. All that matters is why the reporting of my reality was deemed important. My performance goes unnoticed without it being deemed important by a media narrative.

New word for you Neil: performity. It's the conditions into which events occur and performers perform. The media is in control of that. If you remove it, there is no performer or performance.

Yep, you don't matter, but Bin Laden does (to some, at least). Hence the media interest.

Ooooo, get you, and your Educating Rita. One day you might tell me something I don't know and which isn't blindlying obvious.

But all the same you get to miss the blindingly obvious by that. The media are not in sole control, and "If you remove it" the performance still exists. What doesn't exist is your knowledge, or any media control.

And thank f**k there's some media control. Otherwise we'd only have the empty speculation and nothing solid that some here have as their baseless truth. Cos while there can be reasons for the presentation of lies by the media or those feeding them, there's also another - stronger - side to things.

[lost]

I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories but the two things which don't sit well with me are:

1) watching and reading US media over the last few weeks they seem to be going through the same "cuts" debates currently as we did a few months ago with the democrats favouring cuts to the military whilst the republicans want cuts to social security.

2) the fact that many news sources over the years have been reporting Bin Laden has been suffering from Kidney failure/disease since 2003 which I believe has a 2 - 3 year life expectancy.

Though if the yanks have had the body on ice ready to wheel out is it wrong of me to think this may not be a bad thing if it results in a more insular USA with lower military spending and a 2nd Obama term over say Palin or Donald Trump??

[Kyelo]

"Osama Bin Laden"s an anagram of "lob da man in sea"!

Edited May 4, 2011 by BenchBuddah

[eFestivals]

I'm generally not one for conspiracy theories but the two things which don't sit well with me are:

1) watching and reading US media over the last few weeks they seem to be going through the same "cuts" debates currently as we did a few months ago with the democrats favouring cuts to the military whilst the republicans want cuts to social security.

2) the fact that many news sources over the years have been reporting Bin Laden has been suffering from Kidney failure/disease since 2003 which I believe has a 2 - 3 year life expectancy.

Though if the yanks have had the body on ice ready to wheel out is it wrong of me to think this may not be a bad thing if it results in a more insular USA with lower military spending and a 2nd Obama term over say Palin or Donald Trump??

the thing is, is that there's always things like this that can be dragged out as reasons at any point in time. So while it's always prudent to consider whether they might be the reason, the fact that such reasons exist says nothing at all by themselves.

And of course there's the fact that with all speculative reasons like these cast aside, the fact remains that the USA was after Bin Laden, and that if they found him they'd try and get him. And if they did get him, some people would point to those speculative reasons above the fact they were after him anyway.

As for "kidney failure/disease" having a "2 - 3 year life expectancy", it depends entirely on what the kidney problem is. People live on dialysis for many years (far longer than 2 or 3 years), and portable personal dialysis machines are easily available and relatively cheap. But anyway, the suggestion he had a kidney problem had little more basis than many of speculative ideas that people have posted here.

It might be the case that the timing of this has been contrived, but it's certainly the case that there's been better points in the past than exists right now - so why wasn't it done then? What that doesn't cover of course is how this might be used going forwards (such as your suggestion above), but cock-up is more likely than conspiracy as is also the simple fact of coincidence, particularly with something that was always likely to happen at some point anyway.

[lost]

the thing is, is that there's always things like this that can be dragged out as reasons at any point in time. So while it's always prudent to consider whether they might be the reason, the fact that such reasons exist says nothing at all by themselves.

And of course there's the fact that with all speculative reasons like these cast aside, the fact remains that the USA was after Bin Laden, and that if they found him they'd try and get him. And if they did get him, some people would point to those speculative reasons above the fact they were after him anyway.

As for "kidney failure/disease" having a "2 - 3 year life expectancy", it depends entirely on what the kidney problem is. People live on dialysis for many years (far longer than 2 or 3 years), and portable personal dialysis machines are easily available and relatively cheap. But anyway, the suggestion he had a kidney problem had little more basis than many of speculative ideas that people have posted here.

It might be the case that the timing of this has been contrived, but it's certainly the case that there's been better points in the past than exists right now - so why wasn't it done then? What that doesn't cover of course is how this might be used going forwards (such as your suggestion above), but cock-up is more likely than conspiracy as is also the simple fact of coincidence, particularly with something that was always likely to happen at some point anyway.

[eFestivals]

I think the reason there are so many conspiracy theories is the whole "war on terror" has been 1 big lie, the WMD's were a lie and the ties between Bin Laden and Saddam were lies too. Its like if you had a mate who had told a few porkies in the past came into the pub and said "I proved the Loch Ness monster existed at the weekend, I caught him, killed him and burnt the remains" Even that Vatican has provided more proof via a medical report for pope john paul 2's beatification. Hopefully more stuff will come out over the next few weeks.

I almost agree with you there, but not quite.

While the "war on terror" has been used as a convenient excuse for particular actions, the fact remains that there was a massive terrorist attack on the USA. While Bin Laden's direct responsibility for that can be questioned, it's certainly the case that he was in the mix with it, and his prominent support for actions against the USA makes him a prominent target for a response from them.

To my mind, it's far less likely to all be the conspiracy that some like to imagine than the far more obvious case of govts using the stupidity and apathy of their citizens against them. It only takes a fleeting glance at the 'Arab Spring' to see how real and non-conspiritual events are then used to further the west's supposed longer term interests with just a little distortion of the truth needed for that.

[worm]

I did. But simple analysis is better than your none-at-all.

[worm]

The media are not in sole control, and "If you remove it" the performance still exists.

[eFestivals]

Let's put it another way: you were/ are wrong. There are times when it's advantageous and times when it's not.

I'm not wrong, unless you're going to tell me when since 9/11 it wouldn't have been advantageous for the USA to announce the death of Bin Laden.

You've previously said that it wouldn't have been advantageous the day after 9/11. Stupidity doesn't come any greater than that, so care to try again?

(Or are you going to admit that you're wrong? ).