World Cup 2018

[Cardboard Box City]

With all the talk of FIFA corruption and how Russia is a 'mafia state' I wonder if the irony of the English bid escapes the UK media; to expand, England as part of their bid brought preamturely bald William Saxe-Coburg-Gotha with them to make one of their keynote speeches. Now then, whilst I'm sure he's a personable young fellow and all that, this is a person who has had no practical involvement with football as either a player or administrator (and his honarary presidency of the FA or whatever he's been given is meaningless - he got it because of who he is, nothing to do with football) and the extent of his participation in 'the beautiful game' appears to be getting free tickets for the FA cup final and other prestigious matches (in spite of being a member of one of the wealthiest families on the planet). Moreover, within his speech, as if to emphasise his lack of qualifications in an honest appraisal of the ability of England to organise a tournament, he made a point of highlighting his own personal inadequacies by citing the fact that he wouldn't even be organising his own wedding. Now, I'm not sure what the exact definition of 'corruption' the British media are employing in their analysis of FIFA and the Russian State, only I'd have thought a pretty good example of 'corruption' in the 21st century would be engaging someone solely on the basis of their birthright rather than any practical qualification or merit. And as for being a 'mafia state', I can only say that 'the mafia' has to survive in the 'real world' and will constanly be jostling for power and control and perpetually having to consolidate and work hard at maintaining its position. As such, it is a much more deserving institution than one which allocates power and status on the basis of 'accident of birth'. Mind, there's another argument altogether that Saxe-Coburg-Gotha is a mafia organisation that just happens to be more subtle than some of it's stereotypical 'mafia' contemporaries.

[Gre]

I just get the feeling that a Qatar world cup won't be very good for the fans. Possibly the most fun aspect of Germany for me was travelling round, seeing different cities, experiencing the atmosphere of a room that was 90% Brazilians/Aussies for their game etc.

What the plan for Qatar? Are they planning lots (and lots and lots) of budget accommodation? I can't imagine campsites will be practical in 40-50 degree heat. I can see it being that only the very rich can afford to go. And FIFA can't exactly rely on the massive football-mad local population to fill the seats.

Conversely, if all I said above turns out to be rubbish, all the fans from various nations are going to be staying in close concentration. Say English, Polish, German, Dutch, Serbian fans all end up in the same city at the same time. Firstly it's asking for trouble, secondly will Qatar have enough police etc?

[sifi]

Who said they were?

[diddly-dee]

So this is comparible to a nuclear power's government and political system dealing in widespread bribery amounting to over $300 billion a year, so much so that "one cannot differentiate between the activities of the Government and OC [organised crime] groups" is it?

[Cardboard Box City]

India are Qatar's neighbours?

[Cardboard Box City]

There's talk of moving the 2022 World Cup to January becuase of the heat - Skysports

[Kowalski]

In terms of being part of a region that faces the same threat of terrorism they are to some extent.

[Greeny_Musicchild]

There's talk of moving the 2022 World Cup to January becuase of the heat - Skysports

[sifi]

In terms of being part of a region that faces the same threat of terrorism they are to some extent.

[Cardboard Box City]

Well, my point was that this country is corrupt too and the hypocrisy of the UK media in a wholesale disregarding of this coupled with the arrogance of the English bid in thinking that johnny foreigner would be woo-d by the presence of william saxe-coburg-gothe serves only to legitimise England not being awarded the hosting rights. And if you're looking at corruption on a macro-scale, I think the corruption of going to war on a knowingly false premise and causing the deaths of thousands is worse. And i don't see much of a moral difference between, for example, the link between a government awarding contracts to organised crime and a government awarding contracts to organisations that have made party contributions, or governments acting in the best interests of special interest groups in the city of london and in multinational corporations ahead of the interests of their own citizens. In terms of 'real' corruption (i.e. the allowing and perpetuating of systems and institutions that disadvantages the majority of its citizens over the activities of powerful elites and special interest groups) the UK is as sh*t as anywhere else (and sh*tter than many) and the UK media's reaction to England not being awarded the bid which emphasised the corruption of FIFA and Russia was, to me, hypocritic, jingoistic and fundamentally distasteful.

[Cardboard Box City]

Have you ever been to either?

Two more different places I can't think of.

[funkymp]

It's like sour grapes overload in the papers again today. Some of the stuff being printed in the papers is very

Edited December 4, 2010 by funkymp

[Cardboard Box City]

FIFA are rotten to the core! I feel like a shower after this crawling, venal game... we're better off out of it

By Martin Samuel

The World Cup is a competition that is, essentially, forged in corruption, which is why it goes to countries that are essentially corrupt. Countries that will over-ride their tax system, their money-laundering laws and, in the case of South Africa, even ride roughshod over their constitution.

It is almost amusing that the lickspittle leader of England's bid, Andy Anson, now rails at the duplicity of FIFA executive committee members, having spent the last year selling reality down the river by by calling any criticism of football's governing body unpatriotic.

Now, reading between the lines, the England 2018 message is that the FIFA ExCo is populated by chisellers, liars and, quite possibly, crooks. We know, thanks. This is what we have been trying to tell you.

The first thing that should happen after football's black Thursday is that FIFA's technical committee should be disbanded. No more whizzing around cities like The Jetsons, all traffic lights switched to green. No more five-star hotels and lavish receptions. The technical assessment is irrelevant. What works is unimportant. The two worst, most problematic technical bids will host the World Cup in 2018 and 2022. Poor infrastructure, fabulous expense, potentially fatal heat, crazy overcrowding, the two World Cups after next promise them all.

We now know what matters to FIFA's decision-makers, and what clearly does not matter is you, the supporter, your ease, your experience. Qatar can air-condition its stadiums as much as it likes. It can chill them like a cool box for a summer picnic by the sea. The moment you step outside that artificial atmosphere, the sun will be beating down at an average daily temperature of 106 degrees. There is so much that is wrong about Qatari success it is hard to know where to start.

So forget England's humiliation for a moment and consider this: up against Qatar for 2022, Australia got one vote. They were the only country that proved less popular than England, eliminated at the first stage in their bidding process. The country that hosted the greatest Olympics ever, in Sydney in 2000; a country that is defined by its love for sport and its prowess against all odds. This is the country that has missed out, so that the World Cup can be played in a state with a population of 1.7million that has never qualified for the tournament.

There are 38 cities in Qatar but roughly two-thirds of the population live in just one, Doha, the capital. The bid reflects this. There are stadiums to be upgraded in Al-Khor, Doha, Al Wakrah, Al Rayyan and Doha, plus stadiums to be built in Lusail, Doha, Ash Shamal, Doha, Umm Salal, Doha and Doha. Basically, Qatar is one big suburb of Doha. Lusail, where an 86,000-capacity stadium will be built, is 10 miles away, as is Umm Salal. Al Khor, Al Wakrah and Umm Salal all have populations of approximately 31,000, making them the same size as Ecclesfield in Sheffield. The official population of Ash Shamal is given as 5,400, less than half the size of Wombourne, Staffordshire. Ash Shamal is getting a stadium with a capacity of 45,330.

This is what the members of FIFA's ExCo voted for, with some specious context of legacy. In fact, the most telling figures are nothing to do with football at all, but can be found in something called the Press Freedom Index compiled by Reporters Without Borders. Its purpose is self-explanatory.

The United Kingdom's PFI ranking is 19, Australia is 18, Holland's journalists were the most free of any bidding country, ranked third. Qatar are 120th, Russia 20 places behind. FIFA have given their two World Cups to the countries in which the press is most muzzled, most powerless, most murdered - certainly in Russia - and least able to question their masters.

From afar, Vladimir Putin, the Prime Minister of Russia, sent a short message in which he criticised media scrutiny of FIFA activity, so the ExCo boys know they are safe in Moscow. Carry on diddling. Move along, folks, there is nothing to see here. If this is what had to happen to bring the World Cup to England, then we should want no part of it, ever.

If having outstanding facilities and passion for the game is not enough, so be it. This country has given too much to football - the rules for a start - to have to suffer humiliation at the hands of a cabal of charlatans. I am not a natural patriot, but get one thing straight: England could stop playing football for 1,000 years starting tomorrow and at the end of that time would still have contributed more to the game than Qatar. And the jury's out on Russia.

What sticks in the throat is that we knew all this, and still allowed ourselves to get sucked in. The correct response when meeting Jack Warner, the duplicitous, odious FIFA vice-president who has been allowed to rule the world from Trinidad and Tobago, is to summon the fraud squad, not shake him by the hand.

All you need to know about the men who made this decision is that FIFA requested, as a condition if England had mounted a successful bid, exclusion from a range of UK laws including one governing Banks and Foreign Exchange Operations. FIFA had asked for 'the unrestricted import and export of all foreign currencies to and from the UK' and, worse, they got it.

So, had England hosted the World Cup, FIFA executives were free to move around with sacks of unexplained cash, exempt from the inquisition of customs officers. Is it only me that is beginning to feel the need for a shower?

These are the men we have spent several years trying to impress. We creep, we crawl, we kow-tow, prostrating ourselves at the feet of crummy, puffed-up overlords. Our friends from FIFA ExCo, or the brotherhood as the utterly discredited Anson called them, in one of his many attempts to offer up press freedom as if it were just another two-bob friendly in Thailand.

Ultimately, good stadiums do not matter, good supporters do not matter, cost-effectiveness in a global recession does not matter, racism does not matter, history does not matter, the fans do not matter. And legacy doesn't matter. Not really. Don't kid yourselves on that one, please, the fig-leaf of altruism FIFA ExCo members always use to hide their naked greed. What legacy is there for South Africa when after one month of football costing billions, 50 per cent of the population remains below the poverty line?

Eastern Europe is yet to host a World Cup and that imbalance has been redressed: but think of the timing. Russia, a country that had to ban wheat exports for fear of famine this winter, is now to build nine football stadiums and a surrounding infrastructure from scratch. What are the locals to do with a new concrete bowl in Yekaterinburg? Eat it?

We sent the Three Lions - David Beckham, David Cameron and Prince William - to Zurich but we may as well have sent the Three Stooges. The bid was doomed from the start because FIFA does not like the power and wealth of the English club game, and hates being questioned or criticised when it makes another self-serving or toothless decision.

The shame for English football is not that the bid was lost but that it was lost as we tried to compete on their terms. We played FIFA's game; that horrible, schmoozing, lobbying, crawling, venal game, that we thought would grease us through the door. And it still wasn't enough.

So while we might feel deflated this morning, we'll get over it. And we are wiser and we know things now. So we'll continue to say exactly what we think about FIFA in the knowledge that we are getting under their skin. They hate it so much that they have fled to Nizhny Novograd and Ash Shamal to avoid us. So, for that at least, be proud.

[minute5072]

[irons]

Dunno why people are surprised, FIFA has been rotten to the core for years.

A few years ago Scotland played Macedonia (I think), they never turned up. That should have been an automatic 3-0 win. Sepp Blatter declared it should be replayed on a neutral ground. What a Surprise his Swedish side were in the same section and struggling for qualification against Scotland. Scotland, one of the founding fathers of football should have told him to fook off and withdrawn from the whole competition. I've never been to an International match since.

The problem with this business is that they have no competition, this will always happen in those circumstances.

Edited December 4, 2010 by irons

[pink_triangle]

Does anyone else listen to the excellent world football phone in on radio 5. I always listen to the podcast and they are about as knowlegable as they come. According to tim vickey outside europe countries have great respect for fifa and the way they have stood up for their interests while the pre havelange english led fifa didnt care about football outside the status quo. Very different to how they are considered as corrup criminals here.

[irons]

Does anyone else listen to the excellent world football phone in on radio 5. I always listen to the podcast and they are about as knowlegable as they come. According to tim vickey outside europe countries have great respect for fifa and the way they have stood up for their interests while the pre havelange english led fifa didnt care about football outside the status quo. Very different to how they are considered as corrup criminals here.

[incident]

Also threaten them with another regime. UEFA shit it when there was talk about a break away pre-champions league. That's how we have non champions in the 'Champions League' now.

Something needs to be done about this, I've been saying it for years.

[pink_triangle]

Also threaten them with another regime. UEFA shit it when there was talk about a break away pre-champions league. That's how we have non champions in the 'Champions League' now.

Something needs to be done about this, I've been saying it for years.

[irons]

Deleted for being a bit harsh.

Edited December 5, 2010 by irons

[ralph250]

Does anyone else listen to the excellent world football phone in on radio 5. I always listen to the podcast and they are about as knowlegable as they come. According to tim vickey outside europe countries have great respect for fifa and the way they have stood up for their interests while the pre havelange english led fifa didnt care about football outside the status quo. Very different to how they are considered as corrup criminals here.

[irons]

3 of the 22 voters requested it/read it supposedly. Good work!

[ralph250]

For an international breakaway to work it would need more than england. Considering france, brazil and germany have all been awarded recent world cups, I suspect they would have few allies.

[ralph250]

2 actualy, and 1 was the English vote. Where was the Scottish one?

[funkymp]

Can't see us having enough allies either. seems that the England bid team thought they had allies this time that didn't quite work out. Supposedly 5 voters have said since they bid for us

Without commitment from a good percentage and from the weightier nations, then it's a complete no goer, and the last thing you'd want in a breakaway is a breach of trust again. Other countries saying "yeah, we're right behind you, be there in a minute, you go on ahead".

Thought it was pretty amusing that we were confident of the Concacaf vote.

Jack Warner in 2007

"If by chance, in 2018, the World Cup were to go to Europe, I'm quite sure, with the English luck as it is, they won't get it. It'll be Italy, Spain, or it might even be France. Nobody in Europe likes England. England - who invented the sport - has never had any impact on world football. England at no time has had the love and support of Europe. For Europe, England is an irritant. There are moves to give it to England. I must fight that."

Edited December 4, 2010 by funkymp