"we're all in this together"

[Gre]

[*]Neil thinks he knows more than two accountants

[Gre]

Only the income a person receives for (best description I could think of) "work done" is what is taxable under the income tax and NI regime.

Income from other sources - such as (the two most common) company dividends, and capital gains - operate to a completely different set of rules.

[eFestivals]

Legal to a point - if people are doing this regularly (as was implied), someone is getting ripped off somewhere a long the line.

Well, yeah - other taxpayers. As is the case with all the options outside of the PAYE regime. But they exist, and they only came to exist exactly for them to be exploited.

From HMRC (a pdf) - there are an estimated 30.6million income taxpayers in the UK for 2010-11. The link above from the Office of National Statistics stated 2.1million businesses registered for either PAYE or VAT. If it is true that there are more registered businesses in the UK than taxpayers (your original point), there must be at least 28million or so registered businesses that are neither registered for PAYE no VAT

Just seems a lot, is all!

Well, you're making me question it now, but I'm pretty sure I've read on several occasions that companies house has about 30M registered companies.

Gotcha. So, at the simplest level, we're talking dividends.

in my very simple tax affairs (they don't get simpler, I assure you), then yep. And of course the saved employers NI, which makes it worth an extra 12.8% above whatever the amount saved before corp-tax is.

[eFestivals]

I'm pretty certain you've made a typo-type mistake there, but dividends received are very much subject to income tax.

Although the rules for "dividend income" are indeed different to "earned income".

You had me scared for a moment then. After a quick google, I've relaxed.

I'd never thought of it in those terms, but perhaps your right, in that it's technically classed as income tax because it uses the income tax bandings as the lines between the different rates of its own rules.

As I'm basic rate I've been looking at it as a single rate thing, when I've known in reality that it uses the income tax bandings.

(apols for what is probably bad jargon to you, a pro. Hopefully it's understandable).

[dakyras]

WTF ? 30 million ??

[eFestivals]

WTF ? 30 million ??

I guess somehow I made a figure of 3 million I saw into 30 million.

Companies house website says: There are more than 2 million limited companies registered in Great Britain, and more than 300,000 new companies are incorporated each year.

However, that is only the limited companies. The sole trader/partnerships/etc non-limited companies will exceed that quite significantly.

[eFestivals]

Yeah. Apparently 1 in every 2 people owns a company...

as you're feeling so foolish from your earlier comment that you just can't resist having a dig, I'll do the same by reminding you how foolish you should feel.

[eFestivals]

What figures, apart from a Daily Mail article?

thne often quoted figures by both labour and liberal politicians (trhe tories want it hushed up of course, so don't mention it), which you'd know of if you ever paid attention.

[eFestivals]

The point is that if you earn £20K, you pay less tax proportionally than the person sat next to you who earns £50K.

As I keep telling you, that's not the case on average.

You pay less actual tax, but not as a proportion of your income.

[eFestivals]

Please tell me you are not suggesting there is 27 million sole trader/partnerships/etc non-limited companies

You total kipper

No I'm not. I've already admitted my error must have come from confusion somehow over the numbers registered at companies house.

But they'll certainly exceed the 3M at companies house - by possibly as much as double.

[dakyras]

as you're feeling so foolish from your earlier comment that you just can't resist having a dig, I'll do the same by reminding you how foolish you should feel.

[eFestivals]

Couple of interesting things coming out here:

• Neil loses all credability when it comes to issues of morality involving paying taxes

• Neil thinks he knows more than two accountants

• Neil is obviously wrong on so many issues I don't know where to start myself

1. I pay all the tax that's due.

2. I want the loophole that I and millions of others exploit to be closed.

3. You don't want to go starting yourself. You'll just make a fool of yourself as you always do.

[eFestivals]

Which can be roughly translated, unless you can actually provide the figures, as "I'm making stuff up".

if you want to believe that anything anyone ever tells you that you don't already know is made up, that's your look out.

But it does explain a lot.

[dakyras]

if you want to believe that anything anyone ever tells you that you don't already know is made up, that's your look out.

But it does explain a lot.

Edited October 13, 2010 by dakyras

[eFestivals]

While it is possible to pay less tax proportionally by having a company etc... Someone who owns a company, is a sole trader or whatever is taking higher risks and has less protection than the average employee...

So what if the tax system gives people a break who are working in this way... Its horses for courses and there are many different horses out there.

As Neil said himself (Mr Morality), he pays less and it keeps his business going by doing so (his words)

And as you've said often enough in the past, you do no different.

And as you show with your first words here, you think it's right while giving no meaningful justification for it, as any extra possible risks (which don't actually exist in reality anyway) come with an exact balance of extra possible rewards - and so not deserving of a tax break on top.

While I don't, which is precisely why I raised it.

So which one of us has the morals here you mindless arsehole?

[llcoolphil]

Yeah. Apparently 1 in every 2 people owns a company...

[dakyras]

Though some people could own more than one.

[eFestivals]

You can cover up for your bullshit all you like Neil, but unless I am presented with facts, and not your inflated opinion, I will continue to doubt what is given to me.

Yeah, and of course the most respected (till a couple of days ago, anyway ) financial politician in the country talks out of his arse when he says the same thing, eh?

And says the same thing not only in the mail () but in every other paper, on TV, in the HoC, when giving lectures, and at other times.

As do politicians of other parties, and his party too.

Yeah, they're all bullshitters, I've just made it up, and you're not thick as pigshit living with your head in shit so these things pass you by, oh no.

Edited October 13, 2010 by eFestivals

[dakyras]

Yeah, and of course the most respected (till a couple of days ago, anyway ) financial politician in the country talks out of his arse when he says the same thing, eh?

And says the same thing not only in the mail () but in every other paper, on TV, in the HoC, when giving lectures, and at other times.

As do politicians of other parties, and his party too.

Yeah, they're all bullshitters, I've just made it up, and you're not thick as pigshit living with your head in shit, oh no.

Edited October 13, 2010 by dakyras

[eFestivals]

Care to give a recorded example of all these people supporting your opinion? That's all I'm asking.

You're the one failing to comprehend what I'm saying, and resorting to insults.

I've got you entirely thanks.

Because you know f**k all, you've decided that's good grounds to call me a liar.

Go ahead. I correctly know that you're only in that position because these things have passed you by. I'm quite happy to let you carry on with your delusions, it makes no odds to me.

People who do notice the world going past their window will know which of us is right and which of us is thick as pig shit without me providing any evidence at all.

[dakyras]

I've got you entirely thanks.

Because you know f**k all, you've decided that's good grounds to call me a liar.

Go ahead. I correctly know that you're only in that position because these things have passed you by. I'm quite happy to let you carry on with your delusions, it makes no odds to me.

People who do notice the world going past their window will know which of us is right and which of us is thick as pig shit without me providing any evidence at all.

[eFestivals]

You still haven't provided anything worthwhile to back up your opinion. No need to get angry.

The info is worth nothing to those who care so little about these things that they don't already know it.

[dakyras]

The info is worth nothing to those who care so little about these things that they don't already know it.

Edited October 13, 2010 by dakyras

[worm]

The info is worth nothing to those who care so little about these things that they don't already know it.

[eFestivals]

I don't... But then again I don't bang on about how it wrong every day...

bullshit. You've posted that you do on occasions when I've also said that I do.

If I do fixed price work then I can lose substantial income if things go wrong..

And if I do fixed price work then I can make substantial income if things go right..

If I charge on a hourly basis the contract always have a zero notice period meaning I could lose the work at any point.

And that's different to normal paid employment that others have how exactly (aside from the much greater wages for you of course)?

If I f**k up I can be sued to the tune of millions...

And that's different to normal paid employment that others have how exactly (aside from the much greater wages for you of course)?

There won't be many normal employees working like this...

you don't know you're born, do you?

There are many more risks associated with this type of working. Any "rate" will include many factors, including, after tax profits.

Yep, exactly.

You don't work for £10 an hour do you? Cos that's the average equivalent (with that factored in, plus holidays & sickness) for the rest of the population.

I honestly think you could not command a decent rate, and if you could, you would...

No idea what you're on about.

I raise this tax loophole because I want it closed (unlike you). I want it closed because it's grossly unfair.

But in the meantime, I'd be foolish to ignore the fact that it's there and that all others exploit it, because to do so would disadvantage my business against others.

All the same, I exploit it to the least extent realistically possible and vary what I do put thru as PAYE wages as company profitability dictates.

CLEARLY not you... You are no better or worse than any other business owner. Just because you are a shit business owner and you struggle to make more than NMW isn't our problem.

Wrong. You have already stated that you think it's right that rules like these enable people like you to pay a lower proportion of your wages in tax than the lowly paid.

Which makes me completely unlike you and other business owners.

Thank f**k.

Edited October 13, 2010 by eFestivals