Middle Class Punters

[russycarps]

as ever people resort to mockery and hostility when confronted by an uncomfortable truth.

It was ever thus.

[bsolxiv]

as ever people resort to mockery and hostility when confronted by an uncomfortable truth.

It was ever thus.

[Glastonlocal]

Sorry, it's criminal of me to have forgotten that the self-justifying middle classes are beyond reproach.

PS: I'm not sure how many middle class people there are earning less than minimum wage, but don't let your own prejudices mislead you, eh? That would make you daft.

[frostypaw]

Brown girl in the ring Tra la la la la

Shuddup you lot, it's stressful times this is gonna get arguey

[Ponyegg]

First point: You mean the system where the top 10% pay 71% of the tax? (http://www.heritage.org/federalbudget/top10-percent-income-earners) Remind me how that's paying less tax.

Second point: I assume you know this from years spent working at the Inland Revenue or similar? Do you ask every person with more money than you how much they give to charity etc?

[autoinflate]

I can't possibly answer all Neil's points and get everything done in time for the festival, but I will close by saying that I think his ideals are admirable but ultimately deluded.

I justify the privileges in my life based on the hard work of myself, my parents and those before them. I realise that people are disadvantaged by capitalism but I see no better system to replace it. Neil himself admits that there is no point in preaching his politics as nobody will listen. He dreams of an impossible utopia that has caused equal or greater misery whenever it's been attempted.

The answer for me is to be a good citizen, be thankful for what you have and use your fortunate position to contribute well to society and look after your family. Humans are driven by the desire to protect oursleves and our loved ones, this is our nature, even if it comes at the expense of others. In our western society we have the opportunity to work hard to achieve this - anyone can do it, the opportunities are there, and the motivated among us will hopefully develop technology to end poverty and take the human race to the next level of our evolution.

It sure ain't gonna happen with pie-in-the-sky political ideology.

Edited June 24, 2014 by autoinflate

[frostypaw]

anyone can do it, the opportunities are there

[autoinflate]

definitely more of a lottery than this implies - for those without parental success to back them up and send them on their successful way

[russycarps]

Bollocks, anyone can study and work themselves into a decent career in the west - sure some have it easier than others but anyone can do it if they want it enough.

My dad is the living proof - son of a postman and a dinner lady, born in war torn london, worked his arse off at school to get into a good teaching career. The difference between him and any of his peers who ended up shit-shoveling was his own dedication and nothing else.

[brightyoungthing]

CAN WE STOP ALL THIS NEGATIVITY/ THREAD! It's Glasto day! Let's be thankful we're going and put an end to all this junk!

[Stu H]

Wow, the eFestivals meet tomorrow is going to be a bit, er, awkward. Can I still drink my Pimms and bleat on about those scummy working class types?

[autoinflate]

nonsense I'm afraid.

You think a black kid in a sinkhole estate in london can get a decent career just by "wanting it enough" and "working hard"?

"Success" is mostly down to sheer luck. And that luck is affected by many factors.

[russycarps]

Yes I do think that, that kid has access to everything he needs to be successful. They do have libraries in London you know.

He might not get anywhere for all sorts of fucked up reasons, but that doesn't mean the opportunities aren't there.

[Stu H]

so anyone without a decent career just hasnt made the most of their opportunities? doesnt "want it enough"?

Your dad had the good fortune to go to a good enough school to give him the opportunity to get into teaching. Good for him!

Not everyone is so lucky.

[russycarps]

Success isn't down to sheer luck, that's nonsense.

Anyone that is successful is just lucky?

[dimus]

I'm a Northern lad. Anyone South of Sheffield is middle class to me I tell thee.

[autoinflate]

so anyone without a decent career just hasnt made the most of their opportunities? doesnt "want it enough"?

Your dad had the good fortune to go to a good enough school to give him the opportunity to get into teaching. Good for him!

Not everyone is so lucky.

I'm saying it's available for everyone if they try hard enough. Some may fail through bad luck, but I believe that most who try hard enough will be rewarded.

To use your black kid example - my first job in London, I was sat next to a bloke (black) from the Hackney estates. He'd stayed out of trouble and self-studied his Microsoft exams and was earning £350/day as a SQL DBA. Probably now on £500+/day.

[Cheesey]

Are you suggesting "successful" people (I am not sure what your definition of success is, but I assume you are meaning good career) are somehow "better" than people who are less successful?

[russycarps]

I'm saying it's available for everyone if they try hard enough. Some may fail through bad luck, but I believe that most who try hard enough will be rewarded.

To use your black kid example - my first job in London, I was sat next to a bloke (black) from the Hackney estates. He'd stayed out of trouble and self-studied his Microsoft exams and was earning £350/day as a SQL DBA. Probably now on £500+/day.

My dad had the 'good fortune' to go to school in Stevenage Jokes aside, you have a point that he had a reasonably privileged education, but he got it through his hard work up to the age of 11 in an average school, then flew through the grammar entrance exam. He did this despite his parents being completely un-educated - my gran can barely read!

It was his dedication that got him into that grammar school against the odds. Just like my black mate who didn't join a gang but sat at home reading his MCSE books.

[autoinflate]

so you do think everyone in a "bad" job has not tried hard enough?

Amazing really. Quite depressing to see you equate "success" to financial reward.

There's more to life than a well paid career.

[Stu H]

Of course. What else can it be down to?

Are you suggesting "successful" people (I am not sure what your definition of success is, but I assume you are meaning good career) are somehow "better" than people who are less successful?

[russycarps]

In some cases that's definitely true. Usain Bolt, for example, is much better at running than I am. Hence he has had a much more successful running career than me.

[russycarps]

You assume wrong.

Success can be in anything. Career, relationships, sport, music, whatever. Success in all sorts of forms can come from hard work, desire, application, training.

Some things take luck, of course they do (right place right time can often apply in the career sense), but to suggest anyone who is successful in things they do in life are only so because of luck, is a bizarre statement.

[Stu H]

Every factor that contributes towards success is down to luck.

Luck about what country you are born into.

Luck about what part of the country you are born into.

Luck about what family you are born into.

Luck about if you are born able bodied.

Luck about your ethnicity.

Luck about your education.

Luck about being in the right place at the right time.

etc

You are not better than anyone else, just luckier. To think "hard work" is all it takes makes you a raving right winger I'm afraid.

[dimus]

Every factor that contributes towards success is down to luck.