The Order of Things......

[worm]

x does not exist for us, without the experience of y. And x doesn't exist as it appears to us, without the experience of y.

But why can't we say that x exists in principle, independent of y, or at least independent of any experiencers of y?

In other words, why can't there be objective reality independent of observers? The universe was presumably still here before conscious life evolved - of course we only know this because of our experience, but we can abstract from our experience, surely?

For instance, when you die, the world continues for other people, even though it's ended for you. It doesn't disappear in a puff of smoke because you can no longer experience it. Ergo, if the last conscious being died, the universe wouldn't disappear.

You seem to be denying objectivity and abstract reasoning. Since this is based on experience of seeing people die and the world continuing, then surely we can trust knowledge and reason gained through experience? Or at least as much as we trust any experience.

[worm]

"You cannot say what x is, and x does not even exist, without the experience of y."

"You cannot say what senses are, and senses do not even exist, without the experience of 'things' that can be sensed."

[worm]

and you have no evidence of senses existing outside of what can be sensed.

Edited March 29, 2011 by worm

[ampersand]

[miniand]

I think I'll leave you here, to discuss this amongst yourself.

[worm]

Neil is trying to suggest a universe of things that exist outside of sensual experience. I'm saying that he has no proof of it, as all he has to go on is sensory information.

In naive retaliation, he's saying that I have to prove that there is sense without this universe of things. When the fact of the matter is that there is no proof of a universe of things and every proof of a universe of sensual information.

He seems to be mistaking a universe of sensory information as evidence of a universe of things. That is not the case. It's an assumption. One based upon the notion that our minds can perfectly conceive of a world outside of sense.

[worm]

if everything is only sensory perception, then nothing exists

[windy_miller]

In other words, why can't there be objective reality independent of observers? The universe was presumably still here before conscious life evolved - of course we only know this because of our experience, but we can abstract from our experience, surely?

[llcoolphil]

it's the whole "if a tree falls in a forest...." debate, isn't it. However philosophical we like to be, we pretty much know some things

[windy_miller]

Not entirely related, but I'm going to post this here anyway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXmzcroUmdU

[windy_miller]

Is the completion of this that it doesnt make a sound unless there is a hearing device of some kind to realise the soundwave?

[llcoolphil]

The tree both falls and does not fall. Only once a concious observer walks into the forest is a concrete state chosen.

[eFestivals]

congratulations on starting your first ever thread. It's only taken you six years, which is rather surprising for someone with so much to say. You've preferred to spoil other threads til now.

Anyway ....

worm: are people born with pre-set knowledge, or are they a blank canvas?

Without your view on that, which is at the heart of things, there's no point in any discussion on this subject.

[rabid]

Is the completion of this that it doesnt make a sound unless there is a hearing device of some kind to realise the soundwave?

[worm]

At what point does it become a sound?

Edited March 30, 2011 by worm

[feral chile]

At what point does it become a sound?

[feral chile]

The moment we experience it.

After the experience, we then reason that it is part of a process (modelled on experience being fluid and seemingly linear). Thus, we create the concept of soundwaves; the suliminal entity that creates the experience of sound. There would be no such thing as soundwaves without the experience of sound.

[worm]

congratulations on starting your first ever thread. It's only taken you six years, which is rather surprising for someone with so much to say.

Edited March 30, 2011 by worm

[rabid]

The moment we experience it.

[greenfairy43]

congratulations on starting your first ever thread. It's only taken you six years, which is rather surprising for someone with so much to say. You've preferred to spoil other threads til now.

[worm]

Is that when it reaches our ears or when the signal reaches out brains or when our brains interpret the signal.

[feral chile]

Is that when it reaches our ears or when the signal reaches out brains or when our brains interpret the signal.

[worm]

to complete what I said...

it all exists

[rabid]

It's when we experience it. Experience is always primary. Everything else is made up (that's not to say wrong).

[feral chile]

isn't it just human arrogance to even ponder the concept that if nobody or nothing hears the tree falling then it doesn't make a sound.

the only bit missing is any proof...

for those who need it