Football 2010-2011

[Cardboard Box City]

Price wise I was reading that the highest price is £17 in english money for all the big games and fill the stadium regularly for all the mid-table clashes as well.

[ampersand]

I like La Liga, especially betting wise.

[eFestivals]

Its something like 140 euros for a season ticket to most Bundesliga clubs. And they have terracing, but shockingly no one dies? There must be some sort of cover-up otherwise the FA etc might just be full of shit.

or perhaps you're an ostrich?

No one died on terraces in the UK for years. And then 96 did. It doesn't have to happen every Saturday you know.

Yes, there were other factors involved in that, but those other factors cease to be factors if there's not terracing.

I'm no fan of no terracing, but I'm not completely daft either.

[Cardboard Box City]

or perhaps you're an ostrich?

No one died on terraces in the UK for years. And then 96 did. It doesn't have to happen every Saturday you know.

Yes, there were other factors involved in that, but those other factors cease to be factors if there's not terracing.

I'm no fan of no terracing, but I'm not completely daft either.

[eFestivals]

The Germans show how safe terracing can be, and the sort of atmosphere it creates. Simple as that.

There's no reason it couldn't be used in the top two tiers of English football, the Taylor Report even stated that it was not unsafe but the government decided against it.

The Germans aren't the English tho. It's only really comparable if the German crowd behaviour mirrors English crowd behaviour - and while I've no experience of German crowds I suspect there's enough of a difference for them to not really be comparable.

As for the govt, that's what govts do. They don't adopt a position on things like this where they're likely to be the ones criticised if things don't work out as hoped for. They took the safe option - both for the crowd and for them.

While I'm sure there's a sizable number who would prefer to go back to terracing, I suspect majority crowd opinion would be strongly against it - for example, in the last few days the airlines have called for changes in airport security because they say it's inconvenient for passengers, but the passengers response has mainly been that they prefer the inconvenience to having the extra risks. While I know that's not quite the same thing as a football crowd, I think the principle holds - people prefer absolute safety.

[ampersand]

No one died on terraces in the UK for years. And then 96 did. It doesn't have to happen every Saturday you know.

[ampersand]

While I know that's not quite the same thing as a football crowd, I think the principle holds - people prefer absolute safety.

[eFestivals]

and what if a similar crush was to happen with a seated stadium? do we just go to an exclusive tv audience?

It's quite possible that it could happen in a seated at som4e point - but it would only be the foolish who thought that made the two things equal.

After all, the greater amount of crowd control that fixed seating allows means that the likelihood of an incident is less likely.

as cbc says, germany proves that it works in the modern era.

That only proves it works in Germany. English crowds aren't the same.

That's not me saying it couldn't work in the UK, but the fact of English crowds being (these are my assumptions, but I reckon they're reasonable) more chaotic and more enthusiastic would need to be factored in.

[Cardboard Box City]

While I'm sure there's a sizable number who would prefer to go back to terracing, I suspect majority crowd opinion would be strongly against it

Edited October 28, 2010 by Cardboard Box City

[Cardboard Box City]

but the fact of English crowds being (these are my assumptions, but I reckon they're reasonable) more chaotic and more enthusiastic would need to be factored in.

[The Nal]

Heres a vid of the River Plate vs Boca Jnrs game I was at last year before the game. Theres nothing, including the San siro, that comes even close to this. Not a proper seat in the stadium either. People literally standing on the top of the stadium. It was a total free for all.

[ampersand]

It's quite possible that it could happen in a seated at som4e point - but it would only be the foolish who thought that made the two things equal.

After all, the greater amount of crowd control that fixed seating allows means that the likelihood of an incident is less likely.

[eFestivals]

the only way to see if that holds true is with opinion polls. i'm sure there's been some recently, anyone know of any?

I'm pretty sure that TGT has posted about one or more quite a long time in the past, and while I can't really remember what they said, I'd suspect that they said the majority wanted terracing back (cos I know that TGT does).

The problem with polls like that tho is that they're likely to be limited in the scope of attendees they survey - while a good number of fans go every week, there's also a good number who only go on occasion, so unless the survey was done over a whole season it doesn't get all the people who attend.

And also, for those against a return to terracing, why should they have their safety compromised in their opinion because of the view of others? It's not something with a balance the other way.

Of course, the terrace fans would say "well, they can sit in the seats over there, and we can have terracing here". But I'd bet that if that was swapped around so that the likes of TGT had to move position their position within the stadium rather than those who wanted things seated, they'd say that wasn't on - so again not balanced.

But at the end of the day it's something that just never going to happen, no matter how big a campaign footie fans might get up - after all, when was the last time the govt changed a law to make things less safe? Whatever you might say, it's a fact that terraces are less safe.

(I'm not going to bother trying to convince you that they are less safe - you've already shown within other convos that you'll dismiss risk as not being there on the basis of nothing at all.)

[funkymp]

Heres a vid of the River Plate vs Boca Jnrs game I was at last year before the game. Theres nothing, including the San siro, that comes even close to this. Not a proper seat in the stadium either. People literally standing on the top of the stadium. It was a total free for all.

[The Nal]

Crowd was fricking bonkers for the Boca vs Velez game @ la bombonera that I saw out there in September, people were pretty much moshing in the lower sections. Argie crowds are insane.

Always liked this pic of the place

[ampersand]

I'm pretty sure that TGT has posted about one or more quite a long time in the past, and while I can't really remember what they said, I'd suspect that they said the majority wanted terracing back (cos I know that TGT does).

The problem with polls like that tho is that they're likely to be limited in the scope of attendees they survey - while a good number of fans go every week, there's also a good number who only go on occasion, so unless the survey was done over a whole season it doesn't get all the people who attend.

And also, for those against a return to terracing, why should they have their safety compromised in their opinion because of the view of others? It's not something with a balance the other way.

Of course, the terrace fans would say "well, they can sit in the seats over there, and we can have terracing here". But I'd bet that if that was swapped around so that the likes of TGT had to move position their position within the stadium rather than those who wanted things seated, they'd say that wasn't on - so again not balanced.

But at the end of the day it's something that just never going to happen, no matter how big a campaign footie fans might get up - after all, when was the last time the govt changed a law to make things less safe? Whatever you might say, it's a fact that terraces are less safe.

(I'm not going to bother trying to convince you that they are less safe - you've already shown within other convos that you'll dismiss risk as not being there on the basis of nothing at all.)

[eFestivals]

of course it's less likely. but if it did happen, surely your 'it doesn't need to happen every saturday' would be applicable to this too.

Yep, that would be applicable then too.

But the first part of what you say is not an irrelevance - a reduced likelihood is always a good thing from the angle of safety.

lol indeed. i'd like to think i'd be in for a better and more chaotic atmosphere for a bayern or bremen game, than i would be for a prawn sandwich game at old trafford or the emirates.

I'm not on about anything to do with atmosphere. That's something entirely different.

I'm on about how ordered or disordered a crowd is.

The Germans are known around the world for their ordered and methodical approach to things (yes, I realise that that's a generalisation). As I've said, I've no experience of German footie crowds, but it's a reasonable assumption to think their ordered manner affects what they do when things are getting chaotic for some reason around them.

Hillsborough was caused to an extent by the crowd not wanting to do things in an orderly way (in a way that isn't untypical for the UK), which perhaps wouldn't have been the case in Germany.

[eFestivals]

but 1, why should someone who goes to 2 games a season dictate what happens at the ground of someone who goes to 19 games a season, plus cups and away.

Because someone who goes to a game twice a season is entitled to feel as safe on any occasion as someone who goes to 19 games does on any occasion.

That's the way it gets looked at by the powers-that-be, anyhow.

and 2, how have i dismissed risk when not two posts ago i said 'of course it's less likely' with regards to a crush for a seated game compared to standing.

Then I apologise for getting you wrong in this instance. I was saying I didn't want to get into a convo we've had before about something else but similar, where you wouldn't accept that there is increased risk when there very definitely is. I was saying that I'm not going to bother going there again.

there's a risk for slide tackles, but they should still be allowed. there's a risk for going up for a headed challenge as shaun maloney proved in the game against rangers. but of course you're right, the government will never change it.

yep, there's risk from everything. But for the last 20+ years our society has been minimising the risks from just about everything - and seating does reduce risks.

[eFestivals]

Crowd was fricking bonkers for the Boca vs Velez game @ la bombonera that I saw out there in September, people were pretty much moshing in the lower sections. Argie crowds are insane.

The thing is (and I don't know for the likes of Boca), while they might be 'moshing', what's the likelihood of that going further, so that safe(ish) moshing becomes something more extreme? (Rhetorical question - read on...)

The likelihood with that sort of thing comes down to the character & culture of the people in any crowd - so people doing a particular thing (such as moshing) might never move onto something more dangerous, while a different crowd that never moshes might suddenly go ape-shit and cause a crowd surge.

At the end of the day, the likelihood of things going that step further into 'the dangerous' depends heavily on a nation's culture. And I'd say that the UK has a culture that's more likely to step over that line for any crowd-event than some other cultures (such as Germany, where being 'ordered' in their doings is a stronger thing than is the case in the UK).

[The Nal]

The thing is (and I don't know for the likes of Boca

Edited October 28, 2010 by The Nal

[funkymp]

If people haven't seen it before

The Lech Poznan ultra's at a under 11's game, absolute madness. (kicks off about 1.30 in)

Think Aris Salonika are supposed to be another club with insane fans, but the Lech one's seem absolutely batshit mental

edit: really do prefer the european / south american crowds, like Nal said - different culture and all that, think if half the stuff that happens in foreign stadiums - e.g. the flares etc happened over here the papers would have a field day on it.

edit2:

i think i wanna go see Lech from about 3mins in

Edited October 28, 2010 by funkymp

[The Nal]

Happy Birthday Van Der Sar. 40 today, impressive.

Also, Sneijder has signed a new contract with Inter. Those Utd rumours can be put to bed now. "No value in the transfer market" my arse.

[Badlands]

Heres a vid of the River Plate vs Boca Jnrs game I was at last year before the game. Theres nothing, including the San siro, that comes even close to this. Not a proper seat in the stadium either. People literally standing on the top of the stadium. It was a total free for all.

[The Nal]

While she was out there she met a lass who'd been in Argentina and went to a River Plate / Boca game (may have been the same as yours). She got hit on the head with a dead chicken

[Badlands]

The thing is (and I don't know for the likes of Boca), while they might be 'moshing', what's the likelihood of that going further, so that safe(ish) moshing becomes something more extreme? (Rhetorical question - read on...)

The likelihood with that sort of thing comes down to the character & culture of the people in any crowd - so people doing a particular thing (such as moshing) might never move onto something more dangerous, while a different crowd that never moshes might suddenly go ape-shit and cause a crowd surge.

At the end of the day, the likelihood of things going that step further into 'the dangerous' depends heavily on a nation's culture. And I'd say that the UK has a culture that's more likely to step over that line for any crowd-event than some other cultures (such as Germany, where being 'ordered' in their doings is a stronger thing than is the case in the UK).