The Order of Things......

[worm]

isn't it just human arrogance to even ponder the concept that if nobody or nothing hears the tree falling then it doesn't make a sound.

[worm]

*goes off to ponder vibration, compression and the movement of electrons whilst getting on with proper work*

[Ed209]

The moment we experience it.

After the experience, we then reason that it is part of a process (modelled on experience being fluid and seemingly linear). Thus, we create the concept of soundwaves; the suliminal entity that creates the experience of sound. There would be no such thing as soundwaves without the experience of sound.

[feral chile]

(without getting into how everything is made from nothing.. mainly)

isn't that what I'm saying?

[worm]

if that's the conclusion, then yes

I'm forever falling between wanting proof and wanting to accept things for what they are...

help!

[Ed209]

Which wouldn't have existed had it not been for the experience of sound and the human desire to explain it.

[feral chile]

if that's the conclusion, then yes

I'm forever falling between wanting proof and wanting to accept things for what they are...

help!

[llcoolphil]

When it's heard.

Phil, the only hearing devices we have at the moment are ears (I'm not sure if bats qualify as being able to hear) - AI hasn't advanced enough yet for machines to hear. I presume you meant recording device?

[worm]

what are you banging on about this time, worm? There would be no such thing as soundwaves without the experience of sound!? Surely it's the other way round.

Edited March 30, 2011 by worm

[Ed209]

that's what I think..

the sounwaves occur whether you or I hear them or not...

the air vibrates.. physical things will vibrate... a sound has been made

you might want to give it (sound) another name..

but then we get into my belief that things happen without language ...

[llcoolphil]

Is that when it reaches our ears or when the signal reaches out brains or when our brains interpret the signal.

[rabid]

Yes

[feral chile]

yeah, soundwaves happen by the fundamental laws of physics. Our ears interpret that as sound. Everyone's happy ...

and then philosophy comes along and gets in the bloody way

[worm]

oh ffs. Yes there would have been. They still would have existed, they just wouldn't have had those names attached to it.

[Ed209]

Soundwaves are an explanation for the experience of sound. They aren't the actual sound. The actual sound is an experience.

The key is in the name: soundwave.

The scientific evidence for a soundwave is always proven by the concept of sound. If the hypothesis/theory fails to deliver sound (the experience), then what we're testing wouldn't be considered a provider of sound. It would be extraneous/nulled. But we've found that waves prove successful in the delivery of sound.

All science begins with an experience of something. Science is, put bluntly, the investigation of how experiences occur.

[worm]

yeah, soundwaves happen by the fundamental laws of physics.

Edited March 30, 2011 by worm

[feral chile]

Yes

[feral chile]

The last bit for me otherwise its still not heard

[Ed209]

and how does they fact our bodies have been moulded and evolved by nature, along with most animals past and present, to sense these hockus pockus vibrations fit into the idea that they might not actually exist. We have ears, badger's have ears, Elephants have f**k off massive ones. There's obviously something worth listening to there beyond just *human* interpretation as so many animals have evolved to hav...

ahhh hang on, yeah I forget. Evolution is bullshit too isn't it

[worm]

I really think you let language get in the way. Sound waves, Acoustic waves, whatever you wanna call them exist with or without someone to experience them.

Edited March 30, 2011 by worm

[feral chile]

but we can make machines that record sound, so we can tell if something makes a sound if we're there to hear it or not

of course we could suggest that that isn't proof in itself... someone could have pre-recorded the sound...?

[worm]

and how does they fact our bodies have been moulded and evolved by nature, along with most animals past and present, to sense these hockus pockus vibrations fit into the idea that they might not actually exist.

[worm]

Not all philosophy. Only subjectivist types of philosophy like phenomenology and existentialism.

[eFestivals]

Cheers Amigo. I've actually started a good few, one only two weeks ago. But I'll take that.

I'm a big believer in tabula rasa, though this does not negate the a-priori of will/desire/urges. However, though we are born with desires, we have to learn about the world to exact them in a meaningful way.

I'm with Locke:

'Even if a man were born evil, he'd have to learn his culture to be evil'.

It's like the discussion we had one time about pre-existing knowledge of how to have sex. I believe that you are not born with knowledge of how to have sex (that would imply an ideal of sex), you are born with a sexual urge that you shape through your experience.

How about actually answering the question?

are people born with pre-set knowledge, or are they a blank canvas?

[feral chile]

And empiricism.

Let's not pretend that what I'm representing here is not science and is instead some bizarre philosophy of sorts.