The Order of Things......

[worm]

A tree falls over in a forest, and someone is there to hear it. By hearing it a person is made solidly aware of their conciousness but are similarly made no less aware of the fact that a stimuli is necessary for them to have that conciousness.

[worm]

Then anything sensed is absolutely real.

Edited March 31, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

That's what I've been saying for the past five years.

complete bullshit, but never mind. We've got there eventually.

Even delusion is real to that person.

yep, tho that can be tested for and proven as delusion or not.

[worm]

complete bullshit

Edited March 31, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

I've said for many years that reality is symbolic, and not concrete.

The world and you are as real as each other.

You don't believe yourself to be symbolic, and therefore you cannot consider the world to be either - unless your thoughts are driven by stupidity and not (literally!) sense.

You on the other hand have gone on about absolute truths

you believe the absolute truth of your own existence, no more or less than I do.

If you think differently of the world around you, your thoughts are driven by stupidity and not - literally! - sense.

Not proven as delusion. Their sensation is real. Just not sensed by others. So, in short, different.

Yes, proven! Proven as - literally - delusion.

[feral chile]

Not proven as delusion. Their sensation is real. Just not sensed by others. So, in short, different.

[worm]

You don't believe yourself to be symbolic, and therefore you cannot consider the world to be either - unless your thoughts are driven by stupidity and not (literally!) sense.

[worm]

well...

source

[eFestivals]

The world and I are distinct, precisely because I am the experience of sensation.

the world and you are distinct, yes.

The world and you have an identical status to your conciousness, also yes. It cannot be any other way. Your conciousness is defined by the world it encounters, which makes that world as 'primary' as your conciousness.

The whole point is that you do not require belief. There is no disputing existence. Belief has nothing to do with it.

true. But your own existence and the existence of the world have an identical basis.

Your senses inform you of what you sense no less than what you sense informs you of your senses.

A group of five colour blind people telling me that they didn't see the green car that we both watched doesn't make me deluded.

Limited research gives you limited conclusions.

[worm]

the world and you are distinct, yes.

The world and you have an identical status to your conciousness, also yes. It cannot be any other way. Your conciousness is defined by the world it encounters, which makes that world as 'primary' as your conciousness.

[eFestivals]

That world is a definition of difference found within consciousness. It isn't primary.

wrong.

Conciousness is conciousness of differences.

It is only aware of those differences because of the senses and what is sensed. Without senses and something to sense, there is only nothing.

The three are bound together - none is able to exist without the other two.

The point is that I'm not deluded if I sense something.

yeah, you just keep telling yourself that those voices you sense in your head that tell you to keep spouting irrelevant bollocks are real.

[feral chile]

That's not the point. The point is that I'm not deluded if I sense something. And as we don't know the limitations of sensation, then you can't really call someone deluded.

We can call them deluded if they do not sense something, yet believe it to be true.

[llcoolphil]

Day 2 in the worm's first thread household and Feral joins the defining debate

[worm]

Conciousness is conciousness of differences.

[feral chile]

Day 2 in the worm's first thread household and Feral joins the defining debate

[worm]

ok strictly speaking then you might be suffering from hallucinations rather than delusions. Hallucinations being seeing/hearing things other people don't see or hear.

[eFestivals]

Which includes the world. The world only comes into being next to what it isn't.

correct. As does conciousness. So you're agreeing with me.

[eFestivals]

I'm not a believer in five senses.

nor am I. That's because the existence of being able to sense with more than just those five 'standard' senses has been proven.

But a discussion about "how many senses are there, and what are they?" doesn't alter any part of what I've laid out.

[feral chile]

So my seeing my cat is a hallucination is it?

The point I was making is that as long as you sense something then you aren't deluded. I'm not a believer in five senses. It's very much the kind of positivist knowledge rubbish that I'm talking about. Just because what I sense doesn't conform to the cognitive knowledge construct based upon sensation or perception does not mean to say that I'm not experiencing anything.

[worm]

correct. As does conciousness. So you're agreeing with me.

[worm]

nor am I. That's because the existence of being able to sense with more than just those five 'standard' senses has been proven.

[worm]

It is if you tried to show her to people and nobody could see her.

[eFestivals]

'sense with'? Are you referring to them as sensors? I mean that sensation is crudely defined by only five sensations.

They are sensors*, and those five 'standard' sensors give five different sensations, each somewhere along a scale of the sensation each detects.

(* well sort-of, that's actually back to front. 'sensors' is a word derived from human senses)

But other true senses have been discovered too - such as, fairly recently, a 'proper' internal sense of direction (tho it needs to be 'trained' to give a person an awareness of it). I'm not talking about the more normal intuitive sense of direction that we all have, but something much more substantial and real than that - something perhaps more similar to the sense of direction that migrating animals have that take them thousands of miles away but then bring them back to an exact point.

[eFestivals]

Right.

A constant state of being (nothingness). Then colours and shapes and relations and stuff. Within this sphere of stuff, we call something a world. This includes our crude analogies.

with of course those crude analogies including the whole idea of conciousness.

Keep agreeing with me, I'm enjoying it - almost as much as I'm enjoying you junk so much of everything you've said before.

Still, you amateurs are dead easy to lead. The amateur part got so wonderfully exposed just yesterday.

[feral chile]

They are sensors*, and those five 'standard' sensors give five different sensations, each somewhere along a scale of the sensation each detects.

(* well sort-of, that's actually back to front. 'sensors' is a word derived from human senses)

But other true senses have been discovered too - such as, fairly recently, a 'proper' internal sense of direction (tho it needs to be 'trained' to give a person an awareness of it). I'm not talking about the more normal intuitive sense of direction that we all have, but something much more substantial and real than that - something perhaps more similar to the sense of direction that migrating animals have that take them thousands of miles away but then bring them back to an exact point.