Do you smoke?

[feral chile]

Why would you want to send yourself a PM?

Edited February 23, 2011 by feral chile

[feral chile]

CBT is effective and widely used in institutions that require behavioural change, such as the NHS. The majority of successful epidemiological research is based on it. But its effect is measured in terms of changes to behaviour, which tells you little about the person's sense of well being and is a fairly obvious outcome given the nature of behaviourism.

In what way can it be effective to personality disorders if it measures its effectiveness in terms of behavioural change? Behavioural change is a superficial reflection of the psyche.

Edited February 24, 2011 by feral chile

[worm]

well I presume it's judged effective based an a revised assessment of personality disorder?

[feral chile]

Changes in behaviour.

[worm]

Surely the same assessment method is used to assess before and after? So if effectiveness is based on behaviour, then the original assessment is based on behaviour. If the original assessment is based on attitudes and beliefs, then the follow up assessment would also be based on attitudews and beliefs?

Edited February 25, 2011 by worm

[feral chile]

Not really. Behaviour is assessed initially. This is then interpreted through a rational model, which looks at the process of cognition turning into action from a logical perspective. The outcome would be the adaption in relation to the triggers. The effectiveness of the new process would be judged on the success of behavioural change.

It's based upon rational learning, so results to tests can only ever be observed through behaviour adaptation. That's my point.

If you look at the example of psycho-analysis and person-centred approaches you see that existential reality is used and is not based upon a rational principle. Psycho-analysis is based upon a historical narrative constantly constructing the same existential present from which we impose ourselves on to the environment, while

person-centred approaches are based upon a number of narratives all of which create the existential choices open to the person.

[worm]

What's the difference between creating a different narrative and changing thinking patterns?

[feral chile]

Good question, but not really relevant. Searle's Chinese Room would be a good example of this though. The logical data input is the thinking pattern, whereas the language that overlays it is the narrative.

In psycho-analysis, the external narrative is to be changed as it is a projection of the internal narrative. Whereas in the person-centred approach, the way in which the person identifies with each external narrative at any particular point in time is looked at. The latter is not dissimilar to CBT and is often used in conjunction with it, in the NHS etc. The main difference is the relationship between client and therapist.

[worm]

So, are you saying that you think psychoanalytic models are more holistic and therefore more respectful/empathic?

[markeee]

still smoke..good ole rollies, every time I try to quit something happens stressing me out making me want a cig

[feral chile]

still smoke..good ole rollies, every time I try to quit something happens stressing me out making me want a cig

Edited February 26, 2011 by feral chile

[Rufus Gwertigan]

So, are you saying that you think psychoanalytic models are more holistic and therefore more respectful/empathic?

[worm]

Are you saying that one model is more empthatic/respectful. Empathy and respect are 2 different conditions for person centred, yet most counsellors will have.

I have only caught this half way. Sorry

[feral chile]

Are you saying that one model is more empthatic/respectful. Empathy and respect are 2 different conditions for person centred, yet most counsellors will have.

I have only caught this half way. Sorry

Edited February 26, 2011 by feral chile

[Rufus Gwertigan]

Well I think what culty's saying is that behaviourism and cognitive behaviourism doesn't take the whole person into account, so it's a short term fix. I'm not a counsellor, so I can't speak from experience. But he was talking theoretical approaches, not the attitude of the counsellor.

I'm not sure what he means when he says that they assume rational learning.

You wouldn't be much good as a counsellor if you didn't listen.

Though the same can't be said for some psychologists and psychiatrists, which is where most of my gripes lie, because they're assessing people for whether they're fit/unfit, not trying to necessarily help the person they're assessing. Sometimes the assessment is for another purpose.

[ampersand]

i had a puff on saturday. it was boggin. and that's when i was pished. christ knows why people do it for enjoyment when sober. just glad my part of the brain doesn't like/need it.

[worm]

I'm not sure what he means when he says that they assume rational learning.

[feral chile]

For example, a person who isn't sane isn't going to be marched through a set of rational thought processes because they aren't rational.

[worm]

I just find the whole psychiatric classification problematic. To be fair, a lot of psychiatrists are starting to think that labels might not be constructive, as there are a range of symptoms you might experience that won't fit neatly into an oversimplistic classifica\tion.

[worm]

we existed before them....

Edited March 3, 2011 by worm

[rabid]

we existed before them....

[worm]

do we exist to cats (for example) depending on whether they have a word for it?

[worm]

this is a nonsense

I know, we've been here before. You never say anything to convince me that is something doesn't exist if it doesn't have a label... i think you had/have the same concept referring to us humans, that if we don't have an identity that we can label, then we as good as don't exsit

which is silly

[worm]

your whole perception of labels is meaningless. You put an odd amount of relevance to it

[worm]

we don't exist if they are experiencing us...?