The Cuts. Is YOUR arse twitchin?

[eFestivals]

Oh, you mean an unqualified conspiracy theory.

it's qualified by the research that shows it's the case.

I was actually referring to the process involved in taking people from poorer backgrounds and succesfully integrating them into a research-intensive university like, but hey. I'll take that as a no then.

I don't know what school you went to, but you continually prove it was shit, and that's probably why you think all state schools are the same. i do know how you view the upper classes as undiscriminatory, and i know you're wrong.

And the best way to get rid of that prejudice is to let people of all backgrounds enter university.

exactly - but pandering to their prejudices merely continues those prejudices.

But hang on ... are you now admitting that there *IS* the discrimination I've said? I can't see why you'd say that unless you accepted it exists.

[llcoolphil]

I do not have a link to hand. i tried googling briefly yesterday and couldn't find anything in the time i could allow for that searching - largely because its a consequence of just how much very current stuff there is about unis from all angles.

None of that proves that the evidence i've read does not exist. Either take my word that it does, find it yourself so that you've read all of the available evidence and not just some, or choose not to believe me.

[worm]

And I've corrected it for you to save time.

Edited February 10, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Neil, do you know how education works? Have you perhaps come across Vygotsky or Bruner or Chomsky or maybe Klien?

There are several different ways of learning and the learning that we get in state schools generally suits social functioning rather than research functioning. Private schooling is a very different form of learning that fits the nuances of the academically focused. It's not even as simple as seperating schooling and education into these two categories as there are a number of other types and an equal number of befitting universities and HE courses.

The problem we have is priviledge and lack of identification of intellectual needs at the lower level.

two pupils, both with the same a level, and the same grade for that a-level - one from a private school and one not from a private school.

Did they both do the same work, the same level of research, to get the same grade? Or did the state school pupil fluke it?

[worm]

it's qualified by the research that shows it's the case.

[worm]

but unless they change the entry requirements, those from the less succesfull schools (generally the state ones) won't get a look in

[worm]

but currently 'the best candidate' is considered to be the best on nothing but their previous place of schooling, and not how they've been schooled. The very facts proves this is the case.

Edited February 10, 2011 by worm

[worm]

but if they're 'lending' the money to students who might never pay it back, how will that work?

[eFestivals]

As I've said all along, people are selected (which is a discriminatory measure) on the basis of how best suited they are to the relative study.

with 'best suited' including how they fit the existing culture of that uni - and someone from a state school fits that culture less than someone from a private school, because it's an institution which has always served those private schools better than others.

You just don't get anything about self-serving and self-fulfilling ideas do you?

The reason there is a problem is due to people from a poor background not being able to get the necessary education needed for the type of University.

yet the results those people get prove that's not the case.

[eFestivals]

No they didn't.

One learned through community based education (learning from peers as a group), while the other did it through research based education (learning independently through access to research tools).

PMSL.

They can only learn from their peers in a group if someone has the info for them to learn from. Did that first one person get that info by some mythical means? ... or did they do it by the reaserch skills they don['t have cos no one taught them to have them.

You've fallen for the bullshit of the rich - cos the reality is that the schooling is not vastly different, designed to cement their place as the rich. The whole system has come about for that very purpose.

You get to prove that education can be a real waste.

[worm]

They can only learn from their peers in a group if someone has the info for them to learn from. Did that first one person get that info by some mythical means? ... or did they do it by the reaserch skills they don['t have cos no one taught them to have them.

Edited February 10, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Well they won't be, they'll be taking money from wealthy students and putting it towards the aforementioned areas.

factually wrong, like so much of the bollocks you've spouted.

The money from the wealthy students will be to help fund poorer students - but only to a maximum of one year's free fees across the whole course.

The unis are expected to use their 'own' money - money from other sources - to try and bring in more applications from state schools.

[worm]

so they're not subsidising the students who can't afford it..??

[5co77ie]

wrong thread!

Edited February 10, 2011 by 5co77ie

[eFestivals]

So you haven't come across Vygotsky et al or are in any way familiar with how education works. Just as I suspected.

hmmm ... I guess I didn't go thru any education process myself or have any involvement in the management of degree students, and fluked the various qualies I have. I must have, cos you're never wrong.

[worm]

The money from the wealthy students will be to help fund poorer students - but only to a maximum of one year's free fees across the whole course.

Edited February 10, 2011 by worm

[worm]

hmmm ... I guess I didn't go thru any education process myself or have any involvement in the management of degree students, and fluked the various qualies I have. I must have, cos you're never wrong.

[worm]

I thought this was all about Uni's needed more money.

[eFestivals]

So instead of getting everyone in to HE by either just letting them in, which is to be frank unthinking communist bullshit, or by lowering the diversity of higher education

you just can't top your moronic trolling, can you?

I've said neither of these things nor hinted at them. I've categorically stated the opposite.

f**king troll.

[eFestivals]

I was addressing a fairer system of education by creating funds out of the wealthy to provide for the poorer.

and the existing tax system fails to do this how exactly?

By making things 'pay for what you get' - even if the wealthy are subsidising the poorer to some extent - the whole idea of the wealthy providing something for the benefit of the poorer is undermined.

And it's no less the purpose of such policies as it was when first brought in by Thatcher 30 years ago.

[worm]

I've said neither of these things nor hinted at them. I've categorically stated the opposite.

Edited February 10, 2011 by worm

[eFestivals]

Did I say that you had, you egotistical prick?

What I mean by 'just letting people in' is making it so that a certain quota of background types is favoured over the best candidate. A best canditate who will usually be someone who has learned through a research-intensive course. So instead of having people from all sorts of courses, have people from all sorts of backgrounds attend research-intensive courses. This requires the identification of intellectual needs at an early stage.

but currently 'the best candidate' is considered to be the best on nothing but their previous place of schooling, and not how they've been schooled. The very facts proves this is the case.

[worm]

but currently 'the best candidate' is considered to be the best on nothing but their previous place of schooling, and not how they've been schooled. The very facts proves this is the case.

[eFestivals]

No, the facts show that the one who has learned through community based education (learning from peers as a group) has less applicable skills as the one has learned through research based education (learning independently through access to research tools).

you've yet to say how they manage to pass the same exams with the same mark without any research skills. Until you do you're spouting worthless mystical bollocks.

[llcoolphil]

Oxford are saying that to combat the cuts they'll need to charge £8,000.... ie, that's just to stand still. So there's not going to be much left over for subsidisng the poor is there.

Edited February 11, 2011 by llcoolphil