Homeopathy on the NHS

[eFestivals]

Beware of dismissing placebo effects - the real point is placebo effects can actually work.

And similarly, don't dismiss the deaths that are caused by those who put their belief in homeopathy but die when standard medicine might have saved them.

[worm]

And similarly, don't dismiss the deaths that are caused by those who put their belief in homeopathy but die when standard medicine might have saved them.

[eFestivals]

It's their choice as to the treatment they want.

a choice they've made ONLY as the result of mis-information.

You might think it's a good thing to fill people's head with shite (after all, it's all that you do), but some of us have more humanity than to take advantage of the vulnerable.

[worm]

Fascinating insight, so homeopothy as "window dressing" for a counselling and support service? I can see how that can be of value, the most important thing in many situations is having someone actually listen.

[worm]

a choice they've made ONLY as the result of mis-information.

[eFestivals]

No, you bumbling twit. If they believe in God then the NHS will send them to a spiritual guidance counsellor or maybe even a priest. It's all part of the treatment.

the delusion that people have that gets called god can't be disproven. The delusion people have that gets called homeopathy can be disproven.

It's about the service user's beliefs, not whether they're right or wrong.

so what you're saying is this: I can order a taxi and make myself a service user, and if I believe it's my toilet then I've got a right to take a shit and the taxi driver is has no right of complaint?

Fuck me. Stupidity doesn't get any bigger than this.

It is a service for healthcare. It is not a service to provide anything which a user claims as healthcare.

But if your version ever comes into being, I'll make sure I get down to the hospital and demand they supply me with tobacco.

[Ed209]

Erm, placeboes.

Water is probably the most common.

[Ed209]

What's it got to do with you with what someone else wants?

[Spindles]

Not windown dressing as such. More just straight-forward counselling. All counselling is based on the notion of 'having someone actually listen' because who's to say that that isn't all that was needed i.e. that it was the effective ingredient. Anyone can set up a counselling practice and the NHS use them. It's outsourcing. And it's exactly what's happening here.

This is the issue. What is the problem?

[eFestivals]

I wasn't suggesting there was a problem, just interested to hear that one way that homoeopathy is delivered is as part of a counselling service, I have always been cynical about it and mr Mars input opened my eyes as to why I perhaps shouldn't be.

and yet it's quite possible to have a counselling service without any need of the fake science of homoeopathy.... so why the need for the fake science?

It's all very well concentrating on the benefits it might deliver by accident from its fakery, but there is not only that side of things. Because the NHS has been presenting homoeopathy as something of actual medical value - able to give a cure - people end up believing that it can and shun standard medicine as a result.

For anyone who might get a bit of comfort via the accident of that counselling, others are dying. Dying due to what we know are lies.

Anyone who thinks those lies are a good thing are encouraging those people to their deaths. Nice!

Edited September 6, 2012 by eFestivals

[worm]

I was asking for specific examples of when placebos are used on the NHS and you answer "placebos".

Hi five

[worm]

and yet it's quite possible to have a counselling service without any need of the fake science of homoeopathy.... so why the need for the fake science?

[eFestivals]

worm, you really ought to try that simple thing called "reading".

You might stand a chance of coming across as something other than a numbskull if you try it.

[eFestivals]

Aye, you can have a counselling service without the fake science of religion, but try telling that to a person who believes in God.

You've been told this already. Thick!

says the thick man who cannot differentiate between an idea that cannot be disproven, and one that can be.

Despite my belief to the contrary, I'm aware that it's possible that god might exist.

Homoeopathy is only lies, made by those who love to exploit the stupid or vulnerable, and who don't even care that they directly cause their patients to die.

Edited September 6, 2012 by eFestivals

[worm]

It has everything to do with me if one day i need a treatment which is unavailable on the NHS due to cost, but they're happy to pay for bullshit quackery, the money of which goes to homeopathist who make their living out of lying to people

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

says the thick man who cannot differentiate between an idea that cannot be disproven, and one that can be.

Despite my belief to the contrary, I'm aware that it's possible that god might exist.

Homoeopathy is only lies

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[eFestivals]

It isn't quackery if it's effective!

It's no more effective than me shitting in your mouth.

Do you have a headache? We can try it out.

Everything used by the NHS is based entirely upon effectiveness. It is all evidence based. It doesn't care what shite the people in it purport. It's simply the fact that it works. What are you failing to understand here? It's called pragmatism.

and there is NOTHING effective about homoeopathy. Unless you're also going to recommend that people try the cure of having another shit in their mouth?

That's the whole fucking point. There is *NO* evidence that homoeopathy is effective.

Homoeopathy does *NOT* work. A placebo effect works, which is NOT homoeopathy or anything to do with it.

And if a user can demand what they like of a service, I suggest you try it of the service you use called efestivals and see how far that gets you.

Still, I really shouldn't have expected anything else from you. In all the years you've been posting here you've yet to make any post that isn't one of your fairy stories.

[worm]

It's no more effective than me shitting in your mouth.

[eFestivals]

It is all evidence based. It's simply the fact that it works.

It's just unsupported by evidence

Yep, i'm the stupid one, and you base all you say on science.

[worm]

and there is NOTHING effective about homoeopathy.

[eFestivals]

You charmer.

far less offensive than encouraging people to kill themselves with lies, which you're doing.

Which makes me laugh of course, because earlier today you were telling me how it's wrong to allow people to kill themselves.

[worm]

Yep, i'm the stupid one, and you base all you say on science.

Edited September 6, 2012 by worm

[worm]

far less offensive than encouraging people to kill themselves with lies, which you're doing.

[eFestivals]

Yes there is. User satisfaction. User well-being.

Do some research.

I just offered to do the research, but you seem to have an objection about someone shitting in your mouth. It will give you no less user satisfaction, I guarantee.

I guess it's passed you by, but the NHS is a health service, not a user-satisfaction service. But if user belief, demand and satisfaction is what it's there for, I wonder why a taxi driver has just kicked me out of his cab when I shat on his seat.

Anyway, I referred him to you, for you to explain to him that a user has a right from any service to allow him what he wants. He doesn't seem to get the idea that user satisfaction is everything, and the taxi service he offers is nothing if it won't do anything I ask of it. I wonder why?

[eFestivals]

They are only bothered by the evidence of a positive outcome after treatment.

i refer you to a dictionary to look up "treatment".

A placebo effect is not treatment. It's a sometimes-consequence of non-treatment.