Big Green Gathering 2009

[Seem Silly]

it has effected the PUNTERS. I am a punter (although not here) and would like to think everybody can learn. By the way is anybody going to get any money back? as it really is not clear on the website.

[Seem Silly]

Hi

The source if form BGG found here

All a bit of a pickle.....

[eFestivals]

(I notice the Banksy exhibition in Bristol has suddenly closed a side road to make way for the queue. Perhaps they should have shut down... instead of finding a sensible solution, apparently when nobody had even thought of it in advance, let alone processed it. )

how "suddenly" is that "suddenly"? Is it merely coincidence that they've started shutting that road not long after eight weeks after the exhibition started?

Anybody care to estimate the cost of "operation fortress"? Resources were found to bring coppers in from Weston-super-Mare and Bristol to man five roadblocks 24/7 for a week. The arguement about financial implications in some ficticious world where everything went horribly wrong just don't add up.

it's possible to know the costs of that manning. It's not possible to know the costs of a festival going tits-up midway thru until the full consequences of what needs to be dealt with at that time are known.

Fact: BGG have worked hard since 2007 to pay off their creditors and have not just declared themselves bust and set up again like many companies do.

question: were any of these debts paid off with money recieved from advance ticket sales for this year?

(From what I've read, it appears that this year's money must have been used, tho I'm not certain that's the case. But if it was the case, what impact does that have on the ability to pay this year's bills?)

Fact: BGG have never said that they should be allowed to go ahead in beach of their licence.

that's certainly NOT a fact - the reverse is true.

The BGG has stated: "We think it that lack of a road closure order is disproportionate to the action taken" (in a press release dated 30th July) - the action taken due to the lack of a road closure order was shutting down the event. Those words of the BGG are clearly saying that they don't believe that the event should have been shut down due to the lack of the road closure order, it is saying that the event should have been allowed to go ahead despite the lack of road closure order - and so in breech of it's licence.

Other press releases have made the same indication that BGG believed it should have been allowed to go ahead outside the terms of its licence.

[bobthelob2009]

The BGG has stated: "We think it that lack of a road closure order is disproportionate to the action taken" (in a press release dated 30th July) - the action taken due to the lack of a road closure order was shutting down the event. Those words of the BGG are clearly saying that they don't believe that the event should have been shut down due to the lack of the road closure order, it is saying that the event should have been allowed to go ahead despite the lack of road closure order - and so in breech of it's licence.

Other press releases have made the same indication that BGG believed it should have been allowed to go ahead outside the terms of its licence.

[eFestivals]

A reliable source tells me the closure order was applied for more like six weeks late rather than two days. I wonder if that can be clarified. If the event was due to start on the 29th July then presumably they applied for the closure at the end of May? Could a director clarify.

it's possible that that discrepancy is a result of the two different closure orders that BGG applied for - see 5co77ie's post here:-

/index.php?showtopic=118860&view=findpost&p=2930817">http://www.efestivals.co.uk/forums/index.p...t&p=2930817

[probadarne]

I can understand your anger and exasperation but its not just a case that the BGG is more believable than another group.

...

Without conspiracy, without the state involvement in the legal action threatened, the BGG signed its own fate by its own very means.

[strudders]

No. They failed because the regulation system is anti-green, and a genuinely green festival has become impracticable in the current political/legal climate. This is how I see it:

1. The licensing system is designed to impose top-down control, limit spontaneity and prevent autonomous organisation (a crucial part of green ideology).

2. The laws are effective because they are highly technical and (to participate) you have to be the sort of person who will pay attention to the fine-detail, and follow the letter-of-the-law, to observe complex licensing regulation. Less technical people are intentionally excluded from the organisational process. (this is completely at odds with green political principles)

3. As the BGG tried to follow the new rules it was becoming less effective as a political green event. What really broke the management was a tension between the increasingly corporate approach (see http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=3398) and genuine green values.

Climate Camp now offers a future for political green events -- where they don't even try to make 'temporary signage applications' (or whatever) -- but 'green festivals' will be reduced to less political gatherings of well controlled 'arts and crafts'.

Edited August 7, 2009 by strudders

[paulo999]

2. The laws are effective because they are highly technical and (to participate) you have to be the sort of person who will pay attention to the fine-detail, and follow the letter-of-the-law, to observe complex licensing regulation. Less technical people are intentionally excluded from the organisational process. (this is completely at odds with green political principles)

[bobthelob2009]

The simple fact is the somebody did not complete some paper work on time.

The other fact is that the Police and Authorities chose to pull the plug using that non entering of said paper work. Why??? that's the question.

Edited August 8, 2009 by bobthelob2009

[Ringo_Spar]

I think the fact that Bulldog Bash IS happening this weekend - despite Warwickshire Constabulary's attempt to have it's licence revoked - casts further doubt that BGG not taking place is just an establishment attack on the green movement.

If "disorganised peace loving hippies" are a threat to the establishment then surely "organised motorcycle riding criminal gangs"(sic) (Chief Super, Warks Constabulary) are too.

Warwickshire police wanted Bulldog Bash shut down, whilst there is evidence to suggest that Avon & Somerset police looked to work alongside BGG organisers to overcome potential problems.

Kybosh!

[probadarne]

I think the fact that Bulldog Bash IS happening this weekend - despite Warwickshire Constabulary's attempt to have it's licence revoked - casts further doubt that BGG not taking place is just an establishment attack on the green movement.

Edited August 8, 2009 by probadarne

[paulo999]

So BGG set about putting on an event within a framework they knew they weren't equipped to work within?

That's bordering on fraud.

[llcoolphil]

Of course it can! It's claims are entirely believable, for at least three reasons:

1. There is an obvious conflict of ideology and vested interests. The BGG would have been attended by many radical green activist groups, and would have raised funds to support Climate Camp later this month. This is a time of genuine environmental & economic crisis, so the authorities are scared. When they complain about health and safety, we suspect they are really concerned about radical environmental activism. They naturally want to promote technocratic top-down control inside festivals, because they are ideologically opposed to the green anarchist movement.

Edited August 8, 2009 by llcoolphil

[BinThereDrummedThat]

Ive been following this thread for a while now, as a complete neutral. I've never heard of BGG before now, so have no opinions on it at all.

All I can say is this.

a) It seems obvious BGG had failed to fulfil their licence conditions (as they admitted.) Although the council COULD have let the festival go ahead, they didnt. No-one knows why...that's the main question.

There is a lot of political "fear" over the green movement...after the Climate Camp protests in London, the questionning of police tactics etc the government would prefer for these events not to happen. Did they pressure MDC to close it down? Maybe, maybe not.

c) MDC are a pain in the ****. I know. I tried working with them this summer, absolute disaster, even to get a simple request passed along took weeks. Communication is poor, so I dread to think what would happen to a serious issue like a road closure.

Overall - maybe there was political pressure to close down BGG, maybe not. No-one knows. But either way, BGG should have realised that the hoops they had to jump through were being closely watched, and they'd have to clear them all. They failed at that, so the council have perfectly good grounds to ask for the licence back.

However, I feel if Glastonbury had done the same thing, its unlikely MDC would have taken the licence away.

[paulo999]

a) It seems obvious BGG had failed to fulfil their licence conditions (as they admitted.) Although the council COULD have let the festival go ahead, they didnt.

[probadarne]

Overall - maybe there was political pressure to close down BGG, maybe not. No-one knows. But either way, BGG should have realised that the hoops they had to jump through were being closely watched, and they'd have to clear them all. They failed at that, so the council have perfectly good grounds to ask for the licence back.

However, I feel if Glastonbury had done the same thing, its unlikely MDC would have taken the licence away.

[strudders]

Yes I agree. It's a shame the BGG weren't transparent with their management. Then we would have a clear idea whether it could be done better when under a particularly watchful eye, or whether all the odds are against us. As it is, the BGG have made complex excuses and avoided responsibility. Shame on them.

Yet they allocated £1 million pounds, and called in officers from 26 regions, to police last year's Kingsnorth climate camp, which was made up entirely of environmentalists and 'middle class' protesters. From what I understand, £1 million is more than three times what they spent on the side-by-side BNP gathering/anti-fascist protests last year -- an event guaranteed to be much more ugly.

Edited August 9, 2009 by strudders

[eFestivals]

No. They failed because the regulation system is anti-green, and a genuinely green festival has become impracticable in the current political/legal climate. This is how I see it:

1. The licensing system is designed to impose top-down control, limit spontaneity and prevent autonomous organisation (a crucial part of green ideology).

2. The laws are effective because they are highly technical and (to participate) you have to be the sort of person who will pay attention to the fine-detail, and follow the letter-of-the-law, to observe complex licensing regulation. Less technical people are intentionally excluded from the organisational process. (this is completely at odds with green political principles)

3. As the BGG tried to follow the new rules it was becoming less effective as a political green event. What really broke the management was a tension between the increasingly corporate approach (see http://www.corporatewatch.org.uk/?lid=3398) and genuine green values.

Climate Camp now offers a future for political green events -- where they don't even try to make 'temporary signage applications' (or whatever) -- but 'green festivals' will be reduced to less political gatherings of well controlled 'arts and crafts'.

What a very weird post.

The licencing system is not any more "anti-green" than it is anti anything else.

1. Eh? Autonomous organisation is sod all to do with green. Either something is green or it's not.

2. If greenies are as thick as you're making out then they're not going to save any world.

3. that might be true. But it's no different on green events as it is on any other events that the licencing rules aren't written to suit, meaning that the rules are not specifically anti-green.

And, FYI, Climate Camp has to - and does - follow all the same rules (as appropriate for the different things they do).

Edited August 10, 2009 by eFestivals

[eFestivals]

However, I feel if Glastonbury had done the same thing, its unlikely MDC would have taken the licence away.

That's proven completely wrong by the facts.

Glastonbury Festival was refused a licence for 2001 on the basis that the council didn't believe that the management infrastructure was robust enough for the festival to comply with any licence conditions that the council might set. It had a history of ignoring some of the licence conditions placed upon it, and the council didn't feel that situation should continue.

Glastonbury was faced with a choice: radically reform itself, or have the festival never happen again. Rightly or wrongly, the festival chose to reform itself; it got in professional management that the council could have faith in with regard to the licence conditions, and since then the council have been very largely happy with how the festival is now run.

The same options are open to BGG if it wants to work within the law.

(Issues around those laws are something entirely separate).

[eFestivals]

Yet they allocated £1 million pounds, and called in officers from 26 regions, to police last year's Kingsnorth climate camp, which was made up entirely of environmentalists and 'middle class' protesters.

Do you think that the fact that those protesters had stated their intention to shut down a significant part of this country's infrastructure was an irelevance here?

Whatever your politics, it would be stupid in the extreme to expect any govt of any colour to roll over and allow a small and (in relation to the country as a whole) insignificant group to disrupt the smooth running of this country.

The police are strangely paranoid about the green movement, and it's obviously not because the participants are scary thugs taking to the streets, but perhaps because they are politically powerful,

or alternatively, because those people had stated their intention to break the laws of this country, with (if they succeeded) the results to the detriment of wider society.

But the middle class media -- like the Guardian -- have recently been showing the police in their true light, which must worry them.

have the likes of the Guardian been doing anything different to what they've been doing for 25+ years? Nope.

I can show you similarly critical Guardian articles from the early '80s of the police's actions against the miners, and travellers, and others.

IMO, the activities that you spend the majority of your life doing can affect your credibility.

For once, I agree entirely with you.

And this is why the police take the actions they have done against Climate Camp - if they state they're going to carry out criminal activities (which they did do, saying they'd shut down the power station) then it's hardly surprising that they get treated as criminals.

(Anything about "the real criminals are the polluters" is not of relevance here).

[probadarne]

Ah, OK, I accept the point about the militancy being more significant than the politics. I discovered this report from kingsnorth 08. I didn't realise they got anything like this far:

Despite the fact that we had publicly announced what we were going to do months in advance; despite E.ON spending millions on extra security, and the Government spending millions on policing; despite the extra fences, the smear campaigns, the scare stories, and the most repressive and heavy-handed policing of peaceful protest for many years; despite all of this, we got over the fences, disrupted the power station, and massively embarrassed an international energy giant. We outsmarted 26 police forces to run the biggest climate camp ever. We covered the river in boats, filled the streets with people, covered the power station gates with banners and hit at least eight other targets with autonomous actions. We flooded the national, local and independent media with our stories and messages. E.ON and the Government threw everything they could at us, and they still couldn't hold us back.

We're just ordinary people with a cause. And we proved our power - not just to the outside world, but to ourselves. Now we know what we can do, and our movement is stronger than ever.

[Ringoid]

As a side note I have just got back from the Boomtown Fair in the forest of Dean. This had a large traveller presence and very little policing (a van and 3-4 polioe outside the gate) and went ahead fine and there were no problems. As far as i could tell no roads were closed and there were cars and vans parked along the road.

This makes me think that the BGG issues might be more political than I first thought.

[BT Rich]

We were not allowed cars parked on the road and Police were very strong on this point, despite the road being a rural farm road. They informed us should we have traffic management issues we might have to consider a road closure for the following year. On the whole the Police were very supportive and were fantastic with us.

[llcoolphil]

As a side note I have just got back from the Boomtown Fair in the forest of Dean. This had a large traveller presence and very little policing (a van and 3-4 polioe outside the gate) and went ahead fine and there were no problems. As far as i could tell no roads were closed and there were cars and vans parked along the road.

This makes me think that the BGG issues might be more political than I first thought.

[Hairyloon]

The authorities demand top-down management with all responsibility resting on a few individuals -- not a problem for most groups/companies. But the greens are typically (though BGG clearly werent) committed to a consensus process and sharing responsibility.