G20 protests likened to Glastonbury

[joshwarrr]

I was personaly at Climate Camp. I popped along after work and intended to only stay an hour or so. But I got kettled in till 11:30pm. No access to food water or toilet facilities. I was effectively detained without reason. Several people who were also kettled had absolutely nothing to do with the demo and were using the street as it was inteneded, to get home from work. One woman was deeply distressed and clearly afraid. The atmosphere was very relaxed, friendly and jovial. The people were largely amoung the fluffiest I have seen on any demo ever. The police behaviour during the demo was an utter outrage. Utterly unexcusable. In a free society we have the right to express an opinion in a demonstration, police tactics have been designed to ensure that light hearted people are intimidated from attending future demonstrations.

I wandered in thinking that the camp climate was a bit of a fun from some slightly silly protesters. I walked out with a huge sense of pride and respect for the people attending the demo who went to great lengths to ensure that the it was as peacefull as possible. The police were the only ones intent on trouble and they were happy to smack 16 year old girls with their hands in the air calling "this is not a riot". The police should be utterly utterly ashamed of their actions.

I have made a donation to the group involved and have been inspired to book leave over the summer to join them in any further actions. They are a huge credit to themselves and their movement.

THIS IS NOT A RIOT

Who are the thugs in that video?

Why was that not on the TV news?

[jameshunt]

the way you talked about agenda sounded like it was a conspiracy, maybe its not what you meant.

i think we are aruguing semantics. took your control to mean that the PM tells the BBC what to do, where as you mean they tell them there are things they aren't allowed to do. Maybe you see both as control, and to a certain extent you are right but its not control how i see. its not ideal and i am with you that aslong as it doesn't damage the country then BBC should be allowed to report what it likes.

the government does fail us, but we have to have faith they will do the right thing. i must say they have done some pretty awful things, the war as you rightly mentioned was wrong and we were against it, but i hope in the future they will do whats best, maybe thats not always the right thing, but the right is not always possible. not trying to justify the war or anything like that.

i can't comment on Blair's meetings, i don't know how long they were. i agree that the ID card is wrong and the first step towards a possible 1984 state. and that the ejection of that gentlemen was not wrong, certainly not right, but if someone is shouting things out in a meeting then they should be asked to quiet down or leave. i don't know how he was ejected so i don't know if he was man handled or ask to leave politley and carried on shouting, etc.

i think you make some very good points but have more faith that the government and there ability to do good. ok they do things we dont like, they may do things we think are wrong, but they have there reason. we have to hope there reasons are good. if the day comes when they go out with the intention to do whats wrong then i will be with you.

Edited April 3, 2009 by jameshunt

[bombfrog]

Maintain the status quo where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Simple as that.

[dorlomin]

This is a coment on the guardian "Coment is free" section

was present at the Climate Camp protest from the outset at 12.30 and was impressed hugely by the calm and peaceful manner in which the camp unfolded and began its programme of talks and workshops. I felt then that the police were doing an excellent job of allowing the camp to run as planned and was greatly heartened by this. Their presence to me, as a first time protestor, was truly reassuring and friendly. I began to think that we, as society, were really starting to make progress. Peaceful protestors and police working together to facilitate a public opportunity for learning and debate about climate change. What an achievement! I was so proud of everyone involved, police and protestors alike.

The day got even better as people passing by en-route to the office stopped for a chat or a locally sourced treat from the food stall. With the sun shining down throughout the afternoon the mood was happy and relaxed. The police had the good judgement to ensure everyone there was able to come and go freely, in marked contrast to the police cordons established nearby. I noticed newer people arriving from those cordons expressing dismay at the ‘hippy shit they witnessed. ‘We need chaos not f**ing camping being one comment but I was pleased by their interest and ultimately their respect for the camp, indeed there was no violence here, just community. How wonderful, then, that the camp had the ability to engender calm and peace in the very people whod been held back for hours. How great to see smiles on these faces.

This calm, happy atmosphere continued until, with no warning or provocation WHATSOEVER, riot police charged as a line into the South End of the camp where I was unlucky enough to be sitting. The following events are recorded thus:

With other protestors I moved forward, arms raised and utterly defenceless. Immediately the police started hitting us. I have never been hit by another human being in my life. I am a 35 year old woman. What I saw, heard and felt in the next 10 minutes will haunt me for some time to come. I was pushed to the front, immediately face to face with aggression and anger Ive never witnessed before at such close range. This rage was never in the faces of protestors but in the faces flaring behind plastic visors. All around me people were being pushed and beaten by black gloved hands wielding batons. I tried to reason with the man pushing his riot shield sideways into my ribcage and smashing his baton down on the people around me. I looked into his eyes and could see the human there. I asked him, verbatim:

Me: ‘Why are you doing this?

Him: ‘Because we want you to move.

Me: ‘Why didnt you just ask us?

No reply

I was suffocating from the force of people pushing me forward and the shield now wedged firmly against my chest. My legs started giving way and I felt dizzy and deafened. This human in front of me now saw I was having difficulty standing and asked me if I wanted to come out. By this time I was in a shocked daze and within the next two seconds hed grabbed my shoulder and levered me past him and out into the street. Someone pushed me forward again for good measure as I was stumbling forward finding my balance.

On the other side a legal observer who seen everything, ran up, asked me if I was okay and immediately took a statement. The incident was filmed from several angles. Indeed the batons I had looked up to avoid were competing with a sound boom at one point. I was left to wander the streets for the next 4 hours, no coat in the freezing temperatures and absolutely no way of returning to retrieve my belongings or rejoining my friends. On asking police exhaustedly, hours later, when people inside the camp might be freed and I might be able to go home, I was told: ‘No chance. Youll only start trouble again somewhere else, wont you?. I am a teacher, not and never a troublemaker. I wouldnt talk to a six-year old like this. In fact a six-year old would swiftly recognise this treatment for what it is. Bullying.

I liken the events I witnessed yesterday to a loss of innocence. Ive been bought up to trust and respect police. I have always admired the efficient and professional police manner I have witnessed on the handful of (usually school-based) previous occasions when Ive had contact with the police.

My long established trust is at an end. The only people I saw committing a public act of violence at Climate Camp last night were in uniform, moving as one and utterly intent on causing fear among those they attacked. How incredulous I am that, in the face of this advancing and serious danger to themselves, it was the good-natured protesters who behaved impeccably, responding with no retaliation, with no violence. Their responsibility and patience at the onslaught takes my breath away.

Edited April 3, 2009 by dorlomin

[dorlomin]

Here is another coment on CiF that was so good the editors gave it its own article.

was held at the climate camp until midnight last night. When I arrived at 6pm to celebrate the creative sight of a camp in London's grey financial streets, the police allowed me to walk straight into the camp with my bike. As the reports have said, the atmosphere was very warm and positive: schoolchildren and old-time protesters sharing a space full of colour and music.

Within an hour of arriving, the same police who had stepped back and let me through closed in around the camp and refused to let anyone in or out. I then watched the police push forward into the crowd with a brutality that was not only shocking but utterly

unnecessary. All the protesters put their hands in the air and sat down collectively on the road. Yet as the crowd lowered I saw a young man stagger back with his head split open, another boy with a broken nose, a girl next to me had been kicked between the legs.

People were badly hurt and the atmosphere spun into a frightened panic. A friend of mine from university who had come from Nottingham to join the camp just put his head in his hands and cried. This was the scene minutes after people had been allowed to wander into the camp without any warning of the planned police actions, or any chance to leave peacefully.

As they rolled in back-up police and black armoured riot vans, and as the police kicked and crushed people's bikes, the protesters called out to them, and the onlooking bankers, up in their ivory towers, "This is not a riot!". As their batons came down, legal observers called out to people to take the police numbers of those who had hurt protesters. En masse, the line of police all covered up their badges. It was a chilling show of a police force unaccountable to their own laws, and their own humanity. The police were indeed braced for violence, but most of that young crowd of protesters were not.

Despite our repeated requests to be searched and allowed to leave the space, we were held there for six hours with no access to water, food, toilets or medical care. Proudly, throughout all this, not one person in the crowd reacted with violence to any person or property. People shared the little they had and held public meetings about the aims of the G20 summit. There was little show of anger, but much unhappiness. When, finally, we were herded out one by one at midnight, I felt cold to the core, chilled by the unprovoked aggression of those who I had been brought up to trust. I am deeply ashamed of my state, in which reasonable and calm protesters are criminalised and provoked in such a manner.

Their use of section 14 on 800 campers was mindless, their violence was a tragedy and their very presence, with armoured cars and helicopters, a ridiculous waste of public money.

I am writing this today because I grew up in this city and treasure the right to use this city space to speak out to our elected leaders in a peaceful, creative way. There were no harmful intentions in that climate camp, but the harm done by the police last night goes far deeper that the physical wounds inflicted; it is in the chaos of unnecessary state violence that fear is born and trust is lost.

[joshwarrr]

A good debate - there should be more of this.

Regarding the man ejected from the labour party conference. He was a peaceful man. A lifelong member of the party. There was a speech from Jack Straw on his government's Iraq policy. The man shouted one word "nonsense" and was physically ejected by thugs conference security. Another peaceful labour party member sitting near him politely objected to the ejection and especially the use of force. He was also ejected. If you truly think that no member of an audience should ever be allowed to heckle - let alone use a single word, once, then I suspect that you do not understand the meaning of a free country, nor have attended political conferences.

There is more here from a government agency no less, the BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4291388.stm

Walter Wolfgang, from London, was ejected from the hall after shouting "nonsense" as Foreign Secretary Jack Straw defended Iraq policy.

Police later used powers under the Terrorism Act to prevent Mr Wolfgang's re-entry, but he was not arrested.

I apologise for saying he was younger than he was. He was 82 at the time, not 80 as I said above.

edit: typo

[jameshunt]

I hate that attitude.

If that was the case then rich people would always stay rich and poor people would never be able to get rich and that simply isn't the case.

I don't know what your personal story is, but I obviously see opportunities where you see opression. I'd hate to go through life thinking like you.

[grandadcollective]

I was personaly at Climate Camp. I popped along after work and intended to only stay an hour or so. But I got kettled in till 11:30pm. No access to food water or toilet facilities. I was effectively detained without reason. Several people who were also kettled had absolutely nothing to do with the demo and were using the street as it was inteneded, to get home from work. One woman was deeply distressed and clearly afraid. The atmosphere was very relaxed, friendly and jovial. The people were largely amoung the fluffiest I have seen on any demo ever. The police behaviour during the demo was an utter outrage. Utterly unexcusable. In a free society we have the right to express an opinion in a demonstration, police tactics have been designed to ensure that light hearted people are intimidated from attending future demonstrations.

I wandered in thinking that the camp climate was a bit of a fun from some slightly silly protesters. I walked out with a huge sense of pride and respect for the people attending the demo who went to great lengths to ensure that the it was as peacefull as possible. The police were the only ones intent on trouble and they were happy to smack 16 year old girls with their hands in the air calling "this is not a riot". The police should be utterly utterly ashamed of their actions.

I have made a donation to the group involved and have been inspired to book leave over the summer to join them in any further actions. They are a huge credit to themselves and their movement.

THIS IS NOT A RIOT

Who are the thugs in that video?

Why was that not on the TV news?

[jameshunt]

your right it is agood debate.

i have never been to a political conference so i do not know if it is normally to shout out. but most debates i have been to you save your points till afterwards then speak out. he was probably right to shout what he did, and he should be allowed to do so, i just assumed that we had chance to do so after or at a Q and A. if thats not the case then i take it back and he should have shouted and he shouldn't have been treated thugs conference security (i like that, very clever and probably accurate). i have always understood the meaning of a free country, ever since i was five and repeatedly told to shut up in class but never did.

[joshwarrr]

I hate that attitude.

If that was the case then rich people would always stay rich and poor people would never be able to get rich and that simply isn't the case.

I don't know what your personal story is, but I obviously see opportunities where you see opression. I'd hate to go through life thinking like you.

[joshwarrr]

The whole point is that Blair would not allow anyone to speak out, before, during or after. Members of the party wanted a debate on the Iraq war - that request was refused.

[dorlomin]

11:47 looks familiar

[bombfrog]

Good for you.

I find that on the whole, of course there are exceptions, the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor. And the gap between the rich and poor continues to rise - even right wing economists admit that.

You don't know what my personal story is, neither do I know yours. I'd wager that you are fairly young though and so will have less personal experience of how Britain has changed.

To take a different example - the Israelis should be thanked for giving the Palestinians opportunities, whereas many of us believe that they are oppressing them? You see opportunity everywhere - excellent. To bring it back to Britain - the mining communities, many of whom still have astonishing rates of unemployment should be thanking Thatcher for giving them opportunity?

Hope those rose-tinted glasses don't wear out too fast... Things are going to get worse and you'll be needing them.

[jameshunt]

...

So you'll have to excuse me if I don't subscribe to your world view. I see plenty of opportunities for people out there if they're willing to take them.

[jameshunt]

...

I now employ 7 people who I pay well and who are treated very well indeed and although I wouldn't describe myself as "rich", i'm certainly not poor and will hopefully not have to worry too much about a state pension etc. I'm also finding my tax bills increasing so I'm paying more than the average person towards the state, much of which I woun't be using thanks to having private healthcare and a private pension, but I don't resent it at all.

...

Edited April 3, 2009 by jameshunt

[bombfrog]

As I suspected - you are fairly young.

[dorlomin]

You could take a different view, which is that the rich countries have an economic system that works and many poorer countries don't. China is a great example of a country that is seeing the benefit of transitioning to a more free-market economy. Other factors include the proliferation of civil war in some poorer countries, corrupt governments, natural disasters, lack of resources etc.

[bombfrog]

Eh, China is seeing what benefits? Where is the free market? It has an elite closely conected to the ruling party who are able to set up sweat shops with easy credit that they often do not have to repay to indulge in a mechantilist surge for market share to improve their national standing in the world. They face severe ecological problems as a result and are often listed as being a disaster waiting to happen.

Give it a year without 12% growth to cover the cracks in non payment of business loans and see where China ends up.

The long history of violence to curtail local development is so well document that it barely bares repeating but the 1954 coup in Guatamala to defened the interests of the United Fruit Company, the 1953 Mosaddeq coup in Iran and the 1973 Pinochet coup are all exsessively well documented examples.

[dorlomin]

Whoa! hang on a sec. I'm no fan of the chinese government, let's get that straight!

Moving away from communism can't be a bad thing for any country though, however opressive the government in control.

[bombfrog]

You mean how much better the lives of the people of Russia is today with the anarcho capitalism and gangsters that run the country?

[dorlomin]

http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=11474

[504329lt]

I dipped out of this thread long ago because I was tired of 'bombfrog' and his infantile world view.

I still am. To be honest, reading some of his comments, I wonder why I still go to Glastonbury. I am astounded that there are individuals on here who believe that anything be changed by party politics.

The downfall of Thatcher was the poll tax riots.

The Brixton riots was the catalyst for change in police approach and the end of the stop and search policy without reason (now completely irrelevant under New Labour's 'anti terrorist' Laws.)

The Strangeways Riots kick started prison reform

Bombfrog, if you are old enough to remember the Strangeways Riots, then you will recall how the media, and prison 'wardens' said that certain inmates were hanged in the Wings. Subsequently proved to be absoloute bullshit.

What about de Menzes? 'He jumped over the barriers, he had wires protruding from his neck'. Oh no, they got it wrong again. They carried on lying into the inquest. Are they charged for telling lies in Court, no.

Throughout history (and this is for bombfrog), the people have never changed things through party politics. The Levellers, The Diggers, the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Cuban Revolution were not based on polite party politics. The end result was not always right but what they were revolting against was wrong.

Bombfrorg, in general, I have always been helpful and polite to people in these forums, but now, after a few beers, you are really starting to piss me off,

f**k off to V Festival

'These Streets, Our Streets'

Now f**k off to V Festival

[dorlomin]

'These Streets, Our Streets'

Now f**k off to V Festival

[bombfrog]

Bombfrorg, in general, I have always been helpful and polite to people in these forums, but now, after a few beers, you are really starting to piss me off,

f**k off to V Festival

[504329lt]

Despite disagreeing with a lot of people's opinions on here I've remained civil to everyone because they have remained civil to me.

You however, are just a loser.

You seem to be backing up my previous assumptions about you, which is that you support the idea of violent protest. Not even the others on this thread that disagree with me would beck you up on that.

I could start to list all of the very very major things that have been changed through party politics and how many violent protests have had the complete opposite effect than the one you seem to think they all have, but you're just not worth it.

Come back when you're sober.