cellar

We definitely want to be able to learn to live on, say, Mars at some point. And I imagine any research into how that might happen would have benefits for how we live on earth (being able to produce food in harsh environments, being able to protect humans from say, really hot environments). I remember reading as well that spending on space isn't as much as you might think as a proportion of a country's overall spending budget.

I was just trying to say, you might be a bit happier if you didn't let someone online that you profess to not like very much get under your skin (and resort to the nastiness and hypocrisy you've resorted to). I did read all of the other thread, and I did write what I wrote. You seem to like trying to tell me what I am thinking or what I have done, but I can assure you I know better than you when it comes to that. I prefer to be able to have reasonable discussions with people in a politics thread, rather than have to be trying to explain to what I assume is a fully grown human adult how to behave nicely towards other people, but here we are. You've just found out about that ignore function, maybe it's time to get some more mileage out of it?

I already said what I know (or think) to be the case, which is that there was a lot of stuff going on in that thread from all angles. It was a pretty rubbish time for a lot of people, so it's understandable. Seemed like a place a lot of people went to vent, or find comfort. Your definition of troll isn't what I would define as a troll, but I guess we don't need to play semantics. My biggest problem with all of this is that people in this thread (you included) have attacked him for making personal attacks, whilst personally attacking him yourself. Honestly it just seems like people are holding onto a grudge - just let it go! You don't actually even know the guy!

I read the thread at the time (I've referenced doing so in this thread), I just didn't post in it. I think there were more people contributing to its legendary bin fire status than just Barry. I'm not "just backing the Fish Man" either, I'm just saying it how I see it. Lots of people say nasty things in here, veiled in whatever whatever way. Nor do I think that people are just trolling Barry to make him unhappy.

Honestly I don't know why people don't just do this more, if they really are just trying to get an echo chamber out if this thread.

You are aware this is full of personal attacks? I wouldn't watch GB News (nor would I expect it to be played in my workplace - but I doubt it would get played anyway) - but having a debate on whether or not someone can decide if someone else should watch it in work is absolutely fair game. If Barry is a troll because you don't like how he words his posts (or you dont like what believes), then so are most of the people in this thread 😂

Voting for Trump 😜

Yeah fair enough - I can understand the frustration, but I don't read the opinions on here as being as naively pro-NHS as you do, maybe. The point around reactions to the police is a good one, and I think I'm guilty of thinking more harshly about the police than the NHS, but in reality a cover up is a cover up regardless of the institution. Still can't get my head around that Andrew Malkinson thing, but yeah, murdering babies is really on a whole different level.

@Barry Fish Yeah the NHS has problems, but what are you saying is the cause? I think everyone here is of the view that lack of funding has massively contributed to the issues. You say there are political issues, but that's true of any organisation surely? And with better funding, there is presumably less chance of needing to cover up failures (pure speculation on my part). I think the reason people love the NHS so much is the underlying concept of it... And I would say the vast majority of people working in there are good people trying to help others. Calling out the issues that you have is obviously right to do, but I think its okay to still have love for the institution as a whole.

Haha, I'll actually take that bet. I think in a few years time they will look back and wish they'd raised interest rates faster. (Maybe we should call it 20 quid in future years value, if I turn out to be wrong about IRs bringing down inflation 🙃)

Yeah so they could be - I like you am in favour of tax rises that target the wealthy, regardless of inflation (particularly would like to see CGT changes). But yes, this is reducing spending power (by taking the money away altogether), so would push inflation down. Big political impacts as you say though, and tax changes typically have a bigger impact on markets than gradual rate rises, too. There's historical evidence of price controls not working to control inflation, and I think the logic surrounding it is pretty sound. If wages are rising (which they need to in an inflationary market), and you put price controls in place, people end up with more excess money (because their wage rise that they originally demanded to pay for more expensive necessities actually ends up getting spent on something else), and this will push inflation up. Unless you want to put wage controls in place as well, but I don't think anyone wants that. And yeah as I know you're aware, but worth clarifying, these would be governmental policies, so it is a bit of a different ball game. I'd absolutely support tax rises on the wealthy, but its not going to happen with this government. Luckily BoE is autonomous is being able to raise IRs.

I guess that goes back to my earlier point, that you can't say how much they have brought inflation down, because you don't know what it would have been without the rises. And I think the BoE know that they have done things wrong with hindsight - not raising IRs faster, for example. But what is the alternative? And its not just the BoE who you're saying have it wrong, it's the majority of global economic powers. Raising inflation is the only real tool we have that is proven to fight inflation. If you can tell me a better way I would genuinely love to hear it.

Been a few replies since this, and I think Neil has mentioned some of what I would say in response - but basically it's not such a narrow lens as the one you described. Changing interest rates has so many different implications, but one that is known it that is helps control inflation. Frays point about people thinking they know better than the experts is spot on - do you think BoE is really doing this for any reason other than it thinks its the best course of action? And you say too many experts - there's a lot of free stuff on the Internet that you can read to find out more about this stuff if you want to.

Yes, interest rate rises have brought down inflation (or stopped it getting higher). Rates have been rising since their low at the end of 2021, and so the inflation rates we've seen, whilst still high, would have been higher than if we hadn't raised them. All of this is true, unless you want to argue against the fundamental understanding of behavioural economics... Which is why the debate gets a little tiresome (and akin to those people that didn't believe in vaccines for covid). I appreciate it can be hard to believe in because all we can see is what inflation is right now, and its very easy for me to say that they would have been higher, and there's no way to prove if I'm right or wrong. But high interest rates does like 4 main things that you'd struggle to argue aren't a thing: increases mortgage costs, meaning people have less to spend on luxuries; increases borrowing costs, so people are less likely to take out loans (to spend on things); increases the amount of interest on savings (so people more likely to save, and not spend money on things); and finally, whilst not really behavioural (but still important), high IRs can increase the value of the pound, making it cheaper to import. All of these things help to reduce (or control) inflation. If we hadn't changed interest rates, saying that we'd have 20%+ levels of inflation is not a ridiculous statement. And so whilst we can't prove either way, there are a wealth of studies and years worth of academic research to back up the position. And to be clear - I don't like or want high IRs, I just know they are necessary. I do feel like a broken record sometimes, but I am always happy to go over this stuff as many times as needed. 😂 You're right that we won't see the effect of more recent, sharper rate rises for a while though. And that will hopefully be when we see some really sharp falls in inflation. Also all of this doesn't mean things are going to be fantastic even when inflation gets back down to a reasonable level. A lot of work will need to be done after that to try to fix this mess (probably around the time Labour get into power).

Why don't we look at it from a different angle - are you saying that raising interest rates has had zero effect on inflation? Or is inflation higher because we put IRs up? You must believe one of those two if you think it hasn't brought inflation down, so I'd be interested to know which one it is.

Yeah I fully expect 6, just being naively hopeful 😀

Yeah really good news. Still expect we'll be up to 5.5 IR in Sept, but is it too optimistic to think that might be the peak? Probably. But does feel like a big win to shave 1.1% off in a month.

If you want to insult me for not being able to buy a home and not expect some hostility, then you're deluded. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt before, but nah, you can jog on now. Next time you make a passive aggressive comment about me it's getting reported, just fair warning.

Denial or massive ignorance. Or trolling. Leaning more towards trolling again after the last few days (posting a link to why house prices are high with the first reason being low interest rates being the biggest indicator).

Care to explain what you mean by this? Are you insinuating something about my character because I'm a renter, and haven't been able to afford to buy my own place like you have? If that's not Tory behaviour then I don't know what is. I'd say it's unbelievable, but all the signs have been there with you, Ozanne.

I am a renter, as it goes. It's never been viable to me in the past to buy, but even though it has been a bigger possibility in recent years, it seemed prudent to wait a while until they dropped. So maybe I selfishly welcome higher interest rates so that I can finally buy my own home.

Yeah fair enough - there was some "scare" for the landlords a few years ago, can't remember what it was at the moment, and it resulted in a lot of landlords selling. I think I posted about in this thread at some point. Was around tax in some form, I'll try to find it tomorrow if there's any interest.

Buy-to-let landlords have been selling up for like the last 2 years or so, which was actually a result of Tory budget changes

Wind up post

Ozanne can't accept that he doesn't understand economics, so it's best to leave him to it, I think. Like talking to a brick wall that repeats the same stock phrases over and over (but never in direct response to you, of course - unless you're Crazyfool, where he becomes weirdly nasty).