mattiloy

I usually camp up at lime kiln, sometimes on the hill. Maybe your hill is steeper but I just tend to pitch my tent so that its facing down the slope and so that i’m positioned with my head at the higher part so its as if i were sleeping in a big reclining chair or a hospital bed.

Here you go: ’Palestinians have got a habit of starting civil wars wherever they are due to their extremist religious beliefs.’ Besides being idiotic (palestinians refugees presumably exist in most countries in the world by this point and I guess largely without starting a ’civil war’), it didn’t say Hamas, or extremist Palestinians, but just Palestinians. Including presumably Christian Palestinians. On the face of it its a fairly cut and dry bit of casual racism. It might just not have been very thought through or something but I dont remember any subsequent attempt to reword or clarify. Its exactly the kind of comment your pissed up nobhead down your local would make if a group of travellers moved into your town. ’Ooh we dont want any travellers, they cause trouble wherever they go’. I dont like it myself, but fine if you do.

Bad stuff. Besides Ash Sarkar, I never had much time for novara. Especially Michael Walker who I think at best just regurgitates leftist positions that he doesnt properly understand, and at worst does stuff like that. Its unfortunate that he has the platform he and others like him have the platform they do so that those who wish to turn tragedies like this into another exercise at kicking the left, instead of just expressing their grief at the tragedy, or thinking about what is the best way to precent further tragedy, have all the ammunition they need. In his defense he doesn’t say he disbelieves it but just writing that in this climate is idiotic. And from Rivkah, its hard to say anything in defense of that. It seems fairly obvious to me that Hamas committed war crimes when they went into Israel. Because the normal thing to do should be to believe the survivors. And then because no matter what the order was, ultimately its a group of radicalised young men who have grown up despising and dehumanising their targets in their mind, being sent to carry those orders out. So to think they just went in and killed combatants and took hostages is be deliberately ignorant to the grim logic of war. As I’ve mentioned before, the attribution of the hospital strike specifically doesnt matter. I mean, its still not clear. If you want to believe the IDF and the Associated Press’ analysis of video clips then you will do, if you want to believe the other side’s evidence, netanyahu’s aide’s early tweet and the UoL research group’s analysis, you will do. Neither is objective, neither is a thorough independent report based on info from the ground. Thats not possible. But there are a lot of people who have evidently become so braindead by knee jerking to ’Miss! Miss! the Left said/did this’, that thats their reaction to all this sh*t instead of just sparing a thought for the poor f**king people, especially the kids, on both sides of the conflict, who are suffering. So much for empathy- that was so last century.

75 killed. Largely by settlers. Terrorism.

https://x.com/channel4news/status/1715437877604049094?s=46 Excellent, fearless journalism.

Squirm as much as you like. We see you.

I know that I was saying that. And I remember you saying that. Read what they wrote. They were attributing it to Hamas as soon as those reliable sources the IDF and US affiliated military thinktanks suggested it was them and then finished by insinuating that those who had assumed that it was the Israeli govt (again, not an unfair assumption) had ulterior motives (read antisemitism- particularly in Ozanne’s later posts talking of sinister/dark forces). Provocative, unnecessary and mean spirited.

Its a big L for those who sought to use the tug of war over responsibility for that tragedy to make a sh*tty, or as Ozanne likes to call it a ’bad faith’, attempt to paint those who expressed shock and dismay over the apparent bombing of a hospital as somehow being a sign of their prejudice. Even levelling the same accusations at the BBC and talking of ‘dark forces’. And for what? It did absolutely nothing to advance the discussion. Even if it was Hamas and not the Israeli govt, it is not a sign of antisemitism that people would assume that it was the Israeli govt at first glance given that the news had only been about bombs falling on Gaza all week. These were posts unconcerned with the discussion about the bombing of a hospital, and unconcerned with the accuracy of the reporting. They were designed to provoke a reaction- as attached. Imagine using the that tragedy for a bit of sport on a forum. Sick. So yeah, I’m calling it out and giving them a bit of sh*t back to them that they duly deserve.

https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1715429352697934331?s=46 Well then.. Bit of egg on the face for our resident war crime understanders. @Ozanne @squirrelarmy Maybe wait a bit longer for ’the facts’ next time eh?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakba

They must be snide. I refuse to believe anybody can be so dumb.

Blah blah blah. Nobody has time for your snide comments. Nobody cares about your opinion.

It doesn’t matter. It’s true that Hamas aren’t a credible source. It’s also true that the Israeli govt aren’t a credible source. Neither has credibility and both have an interest in denying responsibility. As far as the ‘evidence’ that is publicly available right now, none of it is convincing. So that’s all there is to it. Can I ask you just on this to try to grow up and stop trying to goad and troll people. It’s obvious and boring and frankly inappropriate. You can cheer for whoever you want to in the big fun palestine vs israel battle royale of your mind, but I along with most others here are only interested in peace and the minimisation of human suffering.

Nobody in this thread as far as I can see is saying that for sure it was Israel. A few have decided it was Hamas. But most, I think Steve included, are putting attribution off due to the fog of war. If you think that the Israeli govt or western govts are objective in their reporting you then you’re daft. The Israeli govt are habitual liars, and as for western govts - weapons of mass destruction, partygate.. to name the big ones. As far as I can tell the only opinions circulating other than people on opposite sides of a war, each with clear vested interests, are from three individuals parroting almost identical lines, all working for different military thinktanks funded by western governments and their allies (including israel) - but whose thinktanks have left themselves the loophole of putting it out via individuals (tweets my own views) rather than official channels. So yeah.. it’s not very clear. And it doesn’t actually matter. With or without it, there needs to be an immediate ceasefire.

Is netanyahu also very short then? Explains quite a bit

Its an aide to Netanyahu. I’m just pointing out that it is impossible to determine between claim and counter claim because neither side has any credibility and its obviously in both sides interest to blame the others.

Whats your point? That the remainder should just move to a friendly country. Maybe you’re right. But then surely they should be compensated. The Israeli settlers were compensated $200k each with the disengagement from gaza. Whats a fair sum for giving up your property and leaving your country permenently? Shall we say $200k each for 5 odd mil palestinians? Would probably do it right? But would cost over a trillion dollars. Much cheaper to just make life as uncomfortable as possible for them until they cant bare it anymore.

Right, but you are characterising an entire people as extremist troublemakers. Would you also refuse to accept palestinian refugees to the uk? What about palestinian christians? Are they also extremist troublemakers?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza Just read about it. Fascinating. Sharon did it because otherwise it would mean eventually absorbing the gazans into the israeli state- which would make it impossible for it to continue as both a ’democratic’ and jewish state. The thing now though is that if the palestinians leave gaza, with as is the case, no right of return, then its problem solved. You get the land without the people. Its sick.

It was also immediately claimed by an aide to Netanyahu in a later deleted tweet.

Except it has been the strategic position of all neighbouring arab nations for ages. Yes it makes palestinian refugees pawns but evidently not losing what little land is left is a greater priority for them. Not that I agree with it, but thats what is going on. Nothing to do with squirrelarmy’s racist suggestion that its because Palestinians are extremist troublemakers by nature. As for the settlers- the settlement movement is decentralised. Its not about what the israeli govt want, if the land is cleared of people, these hardline religious settler groups will move in. Then the govt will have to protect them if there is resistance so the settlement becomes de facto part of israel. Until the whole of gaza is subsumed. Just like in the west bank.

Eugh. This is just unadulterated racism. Poor form. Egypt don’t want the palestinians because if they leave then Israel will move settlers in to Gaza. Combined with the settlements in the west bank, this will mean any hope for a state for the palestinians is gone forever. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2023/10/12/egypt-says-israel-seeks-to-empty-gaza-rejects-corridors-for-civilians

Nothing about it is clear. https://x.com/jrc1921/status/1714734593377477013?s=46

This is very stupid. Its cutting off the hydra’s head, as with the taliban in afghanistan. Only a complete genocide would achieve peace in this way. Complete. The only way a lasting peace is possible is by getting people who hate each others guts around a table and thrashing out a deal in which in terms of the extremes of their objectives neither side wins, but neither side loses, but both sides win something much greater than that- peace and stability, which beyond saving human lives is also fundamental to prosperity. That happened in northern ireland but that was with a big push from the international community. It was also a war in which both sides were hurting equally. Unfortunately the hurt in israel/palestine is massively asymmetric. This terror attack was horrendous. But by and large, israel is a prosperous country and people can mostly go about their business and feel fairly insulated from the horrors of war. So what incentive to they have to sue for a fair peace? Similarly, whilst the irish community in the US is large and influential, the same can’t be said of the palestinian community. So the will of the usual international mediators has also been absent. Maybe things change after this, but it will take a lot.