progue
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Posts posted by progue
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Taking stuff that has been abondened by its owner Vs. Taking stuff that someone still owns?
See the difference?
I've made it pretty clear what I think Tom.
The fact remains that by and large the people who are taking stuff have absolutely no idea whether or not the items they are taking have been abandoned and even if they did, they are opting to take items that may well have come in useful for charities and other organisations who have arranged to come on site to remove the items in the correct manner.
The fact that these people are making a nuisance of themselves by rummaging through items when the festival remains in progress also has a negative impact on other festival goers, who do not particularly want to feel like their belongings will be ransacked, simply because they left them unattended on the Monday.
Inevitably, however people who partake in this mass Monday theft, will continue to justify it to themselves, despite the negative impact it has on others as do those who choose to leave their rubbish on site, thus creating this secondary issue for those of us who just want to attend a festival, take our stuff home and in the interim have it left alone until such time as we actually leave.
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Again, you're getting tatters and thieves mixed up.
Sorry Stuart, but I think it is others who are getting themselves mixed up here. Just because people use a different name to describe something doesn't mean that it is any different.
'Tatting' is simply a made up name that attempts to put a nice flowery face on nicking other peoples stuf.
The only way to responsibly take items from the festival is to make formal arrangements with the festival organisers to remove items that are left after the event has actually finished.
It really is as simple as that and no amount of self-justification will change the facts.
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The problem with these 'tatters' and like others I prefer to call them thieves, is that they only appear to be able to consider the immediate impact of their actions, rather than consider how they affect other festival goers in a much wider context.
First and foremost, we are already aware of a number if schemes that are now in operation whereby tents in particular are being re-used or recycled for good causes. With this in mind, you are stealing from charities and organisations who have a formal arrangement with the festival to collect these items after the event has actually finished.
Secondly, you have absolutely no idea whatsoever whether or not the owner (i.e. the person who brought the tent to the festival) has actually left it, unless they themselves tell you so. All this rubbish about tents being left open or with other rubbish discarded around them could have happened as a result of a variety of circumstances prior to your arrival.
For example someone may have gone out for the Monday shopping and left their tent closed and another thief, could have opened the door. Someone nearby may have discarded their rubbish near to the tent when packing up etc..
Finally, your actions impact on other festival goers and in particular those who wish to stay and chill for the day on the Monday. Instead of being able to chill, these people feel pressured to get up earlier and remove their tent and belongings before the thieves descend en-masse in the name of 'tatting'.
At the end of the day it's just a convenient excuse to nick stuff.
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Do we really genuinely feel that Glastonbury really has a Green Ethos?
I know that there are definite 'Green' aspects to the festival, but given the scale of the site, the clientele it now attracts and the amount of rubbish that it generates, has green not started to take a bit of a back seat?
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I once wore an Indian Head Dress, when I was about 5 years old I also had a bow and arrow.
I also dressed up as a cowboy, a soldier, a policeman and an astronaut.
I've never worn one as an adult and most likely wouldn't....Mainly because I think they look daft really.
My daughter's have worn what might loosely be described as a bindi or at least decorated their faces with stick on jewellery some of which might end up stuck on the forehead region. I won't be stopping them any time soon and I really wouldn't want to cause them any distress by the suggestion that some nutjob might take issue with it.
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Yeah like those idiots worrying about swastikas right? it's just a pattern. Their problem that they're bothered
Bit of a silly stance fella. Doesn't translate just cos you don't see what the problem is.
It's just one opinion in many...To me, getting all hot under the collar about stuff like that is silly...
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People shouldn't attach themselves so deeply to daft hats and facial decorations. The fact that they do so is their own problem.
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Yep I get that venting makes people feel better.
I just think that we need to come to a realisation that the shit left behind is part of the reality of a large scale festival.
For me a festival like Glastonbury can and given its 'green credentials' should choose to try and differentiate itself by the initiatives they adopt to counter the problem.
Love the farm is a wonderful strap line, but it fails to take the issue in hand. Plus it seems to me that leaving no trace and cleaning the site as quickly as possible, means that the organisers themselves may be compromising on being as environmentally friendly as they could / should be. Let's not forget, they are ultimately the ones who are responsible and the ones who benefit financially from the festival continuing to go ahead.
I get that it is not acceptable to just leave your stuff behind. I doubt you'd find anyone who would try to justify it. In fact most people who do leave stuff would likely either be embarrassed or pretend they hadn't if, confronted.
Was this year not an improvement on past years in any case?
There do also appear to be a few, not too widely publicised schemes where people are benefitting from recycling certain items left on site too?
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Glastonbury is absolutely fantastic...Go For It...You'll love it..
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I'm sorry but leaving all you sh*t behind is god damn lazy, there is no excuse for it and you should take it home...if you don't want it, can't dry it, store it whatever take it to the tip but don't try and justify leaving it for someone else to clear it up - you're just a lazy sod
If you went camping anywhere else such as official campsites or such not would you leave you sh*t behind - no....so why is it acceptable at a festival? I am always gobsmacked the amount of cr*p people leave, can't be bothered to bag up and pack up grrrrhhhh
The trouble is that saying it is wrong and lazy and whatever else really doesn't achieve a great deal.
I'm inclined to agree with a lot of what Deano has to say on this really.
The festival has been going long enough and people have been discarding god knows what on site for long enough for everyone to have a full understanding of the issue.
People are going to leave stuff behind and they will do so because by and large they spend the weekend getting fcuked, usually feel like garbage on Monday morning and pretty much can't be arsed with the hassle of moving shit a couple of miles across site to their car, when it is enough effort to get themselves together enough to get themselves over there.....Them's the facts and that ain't going to change without a significant move on the part of the organisers to do something about it.
Useful initiatives might involve some form of transportation back to the carparks perhaps or localised skips for discarding damaged items such as chairs and gazebos.
Whatever it is...slagging people off doesn't help at all
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Good story, but would rather it was publicised widely as it will only lead to more tents being left and I'd guess the reason why the Festival doesn't promote this sort of thing itself, is that if everyone did it. It would be to much of a hassle to have loads of small groups or not enough willing/able to take that amount of tents.
I suspect a few will be aware that this type of thing goes on...Another reason why the idea that randomers just tatting without clearing it with the festival IS stealing.
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Agree, apart from the statement ridiculous tatting thing I have 2 pairs of Wellies from 97 still that were left in a field, a new cover for a Gazebo I permanently have in my Garden, friend picked up a chair in the pyramid field on the Monday, but I assume you are just speaking about taking tents and contents of or are you saying everything?
How would you go about stopping it, apart from trying to get everyone to leave no trace?
I think I probably should be a bit more careful not just to blanket everyone under the same umbrella. Picking up a pair of Wellies left next to the bin or just chucked in a field or a chair left in the middle of a field is a bit different to what seems to have evolved more recently.
I really do not think that tents or the contents of tents should be considered fair game until the site should have been vacated OR the owners of the items basically tell you that you can go for it.
It's hard to stop it, but I would encourage security (and not the heavy handed mob by the way) to politely request that people refrain from rummaging around for bits and bats to take until maybe 5-6 p.m. on the Monday. It's pretty obvious what is happening on Pennards and it's not unusual to get your tent kicked, door opened and a head pop in, if you are still in bed on Monday. It simply isn't right to be in and around tents whilst people are asleep.
So for me I'd just like to see a bit of common sense applied and if people are (as they seem to be suggesting they are) fair and reasonable about what they are doing AND if they want to genuinely do their utmost to ensure the items they take are not being unwittingly stolen, then waiting until much later in the day seems to be a sensible compromise.
I'm not really sure I've got too much else to add really and feel like I'm just regurgitating stuff that's already been said...So I'll leave it there if that's OK
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Of course it's widespread . . . Pennards was like a load of vultures had descended on it this year...Far worse than I can recall.
Obviously most people under those circumstances make the sensible choice to pack up or remain with someone watching their property...
The point is that people wishing to stay and chill should not have to worry about this ridiculous tatting thing.
And I don't care how accustomed to the festival you are...I defy anyone to say they'd feel happy leaving a decent tent with just the basics inside and going to do a few hours chilling around site on Monday.
You know full well plenty would consider an unoccupied tent as fair game.
I mean by people's own admission anyone leaving a tent alone with the doors open (to dry it out unwittingly) has apparently left an open invitation for a tatters to take it.
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There's what you are referring to as tatters....there are outright theives and there is a whole grey area in between, which plenty thrive on.
As far as I'm concerned, rummaging around in a place where people are still camping is pretty intrusive and unacceptable behaviour, whatever your intentions are.
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I'll be 54 and I want to go just to piss the guy off that said I was too old to be in the tent at glade during the Sasha set.
Was Sasha too old to be there too?
Seriously though I didn't think that sort of attitude even existed at Glastonbury....But if it does, then isn't it about time these youngsters got their own 'dance scene' instead of trying to smooth in on ours!!
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As has been said there's a world of difference between advice offered on a website and referring to someone as a fool for having failed to anticipate that a packed rucksack in a tent (A fairly common combination of circumstances) would represent a call to arms for the countries underworld to spring into action.
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I think there comes a point where you have to say that things are beyond a joke. Practical measures like keeping exceptionally valuable smaller items or cash locked up is sensible for a variety of reasons (one of which is potential theft). The idea that you can't have a packed rucksack in your tent whilst you sleep, seems like the point where someone needs to step in and take control of the situation.
To take that a stage further and then refer to the victim of that type of theft a fool for sleeping in their own tent with their own camping equipment in a bag, doesn't really sit well either....Regardless of whether it is fits in with the advice on the Glastonbury Website....Kind of feels exactly like the "women who wear short skirts deserve to be raped argument" to be honest.
One thing is for sure, if nothing else, that such a pathetic state of affairs is justification in itself to stop this idea that Monday morning is somehow a licence for people to start rooting around through other peoples belongings. At least that way people can have a degree of confidence that their belongings are no more prone to theft than any other day.
Let's face it thieves should be easier to spot on Monday than any other day due to the fact they don't have cover from the masses of tents and so perhaps it is the cover of acceptability to root and rummage around through peoples effective homes that creates more of a problem.
Of course it also creates the additional problem that as well as being subject to a real theft, you may also be subject to someone unwittingly taking your tent or some other belongings because they had decided (due to the definitive signal of your tent door being left open) that you had decided to go home and leave your stuff behind.
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What a disgusting state of affairs that we would consider someone a fool for sleeping in a tent with their personal belongings packed in a rucksack.
Whatever next?? Stick your walking boots in the lock ups and walk back to your tent barefoot every night!!
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Michael has said as recently as this year that he'd be happy for people to still be around by Tuesday so clearly there are differing interpretations of when you truly have to be offsite.
No stealing - 'end of'.
If that's the case, then I'm tempted to agree with you.
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It is a great thing to hear someone else's point of view on the subject, for sure, makes the thread much more readable.
Over the 5 yrs i've worked the festival there have been some pikey basta*s on the crew but they dont last long as they are the same types that dont turn up for their 6am shifts or turn up hammered. The gaffers arn't stupid, they see the people who are there to do the job from those who are basically on the take for whatever they can get.
The folks I have had the honour and pleasure of working with over the years at Glasto and other gigs are some of the most creative salt of the earth (sorry for poor cliche) people you could find. How would some of them still be welcomed back each year if they were on the rob? This is a job to us, we work shifts during the festival and then 8 hour days from the tuesday, our jobs are highly valued to us.
If im honest I would say its the highlight of my year!
I wasn't suggesting it was the clean up crew on the rob, but rather some of the people who have now latched onto the idea that there is plenty of booty to be had on Monday morning. If tatting was limited to the clean up crew and done later on in the day on Monday, it wouldn't be an issue.
I think it's fair to say though that anyone removing / liberating / taking tents or other items early doors on Monday is potentially stealing, whether they are doing so purposefully or not.
I think it is also fair to say that if you are aware that the site is to be vacated by 6.p.m. on Monday, but you have left an unattended tent after that time, then you can have little complaint if you return to find your tent has been removed.
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Yes, this is the real saddening part - especially so given the festivals green credentials.
I've said it before (not sure if it was on this thread or not) that there are smaller festivals out that don't have this problem. Just wondering if the 'don't give a fuck' attitude comes with scale, rather than any other factors such as people's disposable income, the cost of tents etc. I know that when I started going to a smaller festival that the organisers were actually stunned that two people had discarded their tents the year before. I suppose the mind frame of attendees at festivals also needs to be taken into account.
As an aside I wonder if these people were at Glastonbury again this year - see below?
Probably a combination of reasons, but I'd say the distance you have to lug your stuff is probably a big factor, when compared to the smaller festivals. Plus I suppose people maybe feel shamed into acting more responsibly at a smaller festival where they perhaps do not feel quite so anonymous. Of course, it is probable / possible that the people who attend the smaller festivals are just a bit more environmentally responsible on the whole too.
Good article that and perhaps gives an indication of what can be organised with a little bit of ingenuity. Maybe they don't want to advertise that kind of thing goes on as it gives people an excuse to leave things behind of they think someone can make use of it?
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I'd kind of agree with you mate. These things do end up going round in circles and just become frustrating really.
You are right it is interesting hearing other peoples thoughts / experiences, because your own personal experience tends to colour your judgement. Like everything there is usually a happy medium to be found.
One thing that has come out of this for me though (and don't get me wrong, I know they are not the source of the problem) is the fact that so much stuff does go unnecessarily to landfill, when perhaps a bit more creativity and thought might enable that to be reduced. Some of the stuff Oracle mentioned is a bit disappointing really.
Time and money will, no doubt, play a big part, but it seems a real shame to hear stories of perfectly good stuff going to landfill.
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Why the switch from discussing people salvaging tents and camping equipment to people who may be looking for drink and drugs? In addition, are you really saying that you cannot see recycling as being Green? You know when you say the Greenfields are the main attraction from your perspective, what is it that draws you to that area?
Because essentially the two things are intertwined, people are out 'tatting' for what they can get and booze / drugs tends to be the main prize (or don't you agree??)
The number of people who are actually out there 'recycling' tents and other items is minute by comparison to those who are simply out there for what they can get.
I have no issue with the idea of recycling, but I do have a problem with theft being dressed up as recycling.
There is a whole host of reasons that I am attracted to the green fields, but one would certainly be to get away from a grab what you can attitude that seems to have now established itself as part of the Monday morning norm.
Who says that they want to or even should contribute to the festival 'in that way'? Maybe they are recycling purely for personal gain. What difference would that make? I never said that they were doing a public service. I don't understand why you have suggested that I did. No, they evidently don't make a dent in the overall number of discarded camping equipment left behind. Why does that imply that they are not acting in a green manner, and further more being an unwanted nuisance?
Some, may possibly be acting in a green manner and if that is the case, then good on them. The majority IMHO are not and have little regard for what they take or who they take it from. Beyond 100% confirmation from the owners of anything that appears to have been left that they do not want it, there simply is no way of knowing whether you are stealing or not.....This whole idea that you "Get a sense for it" it total rubbish...Plus there are plenty of those involved who don't seem to care whether or not the owners will be returning....If it looks like a decent tent and they can get away with it, then they will have it.
Please tell me where on earth I agreed, even tacitly, that the tatters were a nuisance? Why do you keep making stuff up? Why would the presence of tatters cost GFL additional clean up costs? It's already been indicated that they have to fuck off before they merge with the official clean up crew. What would make this clean up crews activities take longer when there was less stuff to clean up?
You seemed to be agreeing that they make more mess when they rummage through stuff, which they obviously do. This additional mess takes additional time to clean up does it not?
I was being a little facetious by suggesting you agreed they were a nuisance...But you at least agree that they make more mess.
I suspect (but admit that I have no proof) that a lot of the tatters are people who have got a bit of room in their vehicle for a bit of salvaged kit. They've had a nice festival and what better way to round it off by salvaging an almost new tent etc They may not have the time to stop another night and wait until a formal start at 9.00am Tuesday. They are still recycling.
You are under the impression that GFL encourages, or has in the past, encouraged theft? Where are you getting this from?
This widespread theft you talk of - if it's occurring to that extent then why isn't it all the talk on this site? If it were 'widespread' and most of us had had our kit nicked then do you not think we'd not all have a good moan about it - as is our birth right handed down from generation to generation!
If they have the room and then fancy taking some discarded items home, then surely it is reasonable to ask that they at least wait until very late in the day on the Monday. That seemed to be what happened a few years ago.If they are unable to wait for whatever reason, then probably best not to bother with tatting as it is unfair on people who are still resident on the site.I suspect lot's of people are not affected by the problem as they leave site early on Monday or late Sunday. Those who are affected, tend to be those of us who want to chill out on Monday, but are now unable to leave our tents.Somebody nicked a crate of Strongbow on the Monday after the festival in 2010 and it's affected you this much? There's a cider school of thought that would say they were doing you a favour. It's only what I think (I have no empirical evidence) but I'd say that there was more of a chance of that tray being nicked during the festival than at the end of it. That it happened at the end, allegedly by a tatter, is indeed a bad thing but not necessarily enough to condemn all tatters. There are thieves in all walks of life but we can't all go around tarring everybody with the same brush on the strength of that.
I never said it was. I'm only condoning the recycling of equipment where it's glaringly obvious that someone has discarded the kit.
How do you know that people are far less considered now? You've only experienced one theft back in 2010 which doesn't exactly make it current.
I don't know for sure, but that is the perception that I have. I suppose it boils down to the fact that more and more people are getting onto the idea of 'tatting' which has perhaps resulted in the personal gain aspect taking precedence of any attempt to recycle.
The problem is that by creating a situation on Monday, where it is almost acceptable for people to be wandering around in between tents rummaging, then you create an opening for people to take advantage a thieve.
As far as I can see there are potentially more problems associated with this than it seems to resolve. That is only my opinion, but I would say that unless people are willing to do this with some level of care and responsibility (and I think at the least waiting until late on Monday is reasonable) then it ought to be stopped altogether.
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And leave literally thousands of tents and equipment go to waste in landfill sites? I'm not trying to be facetious with this question, but do you 'connect' with the Greenfields area at Glastonbury at all?
Yes, that is probably the main attraction from my perspective. I struggle to see too much connection between people hunting for left over alcohol and drugs or the odd decent tent etc. and being Green?
Surely if these people want to contribute to the festival in that way they could stay behind and assist with the clean up operation....Please let's not pretend that they are doing a public service, as you have already said, they do not even make a dent in the discarded items, so in truth, they are just an unwanted nuisance.
Of course they do. Unless they have a fleet of lorries at their disposal then they are going to have to be selective with what they salvage and can make further use of.
So you agree they are a nuisance? This will cost the site in additional clean up...Surely better (if possible) for proper organised collection of tents or unwanted items once we know people are gone from the site i.e. from Tuesday onwards?
Someone working on the clean up has already mentioned on this thread (or it could be another thread) that the tatters barely made a dent in the number of tents and amount of equipment discarded that had to be cleaned up and dumped in landfill. This would indicate to me that there is a need for even more tatters than currently exist. As indicated previously, it's small wonder that they can be so selective with their transport limitations.
I'd say it indicates that the organisers may well need to look at options for reducing the amount of stuff that is dumped in landfill. I don't think that the solution involves them encouraging widespread theft on the Monday. In fact I suspect such a move would result in two massive issues:
1. Even more people would just leave things behind if they were under the impression that it was fine to do so because the 'tatters' will want it.
2. People would feel increasingly pressured to leave the site early in order to avoid the onset of 'tatting' and thus getting half their gear nicked.
Yes it is gruesome carting all your stuff back to the car on Monday. I suspect that's the main reason why all this stuff is discarded in the first place. You have a fear of something happening to your equipment which when you have attended the festival hasn't actually happened to you (or at least you've not said it has). I can't see why these tatters would steal someone's stuff and potentially get into bother when they can just walk a few yards further to another tent or pile of equipment which has obviously been left. Let's face it, according to the figures they had 5,000 tents to choose from, so why chose one that looks unlikely to have been discarded?
In 2010, my nephew had a crate of strongbow removed from a locked tent on the Monday, whilst getting a bite to eat, so tend to be a bit cautious now and where possible leave someone from the group back at camp. Like I say, it is a pain for anyone who hangs around on the Monday. Incidentally, it never used to be this much of a problem previously as it seemed to start much later in the day.
Of course there were, because many people will have discarded their stuff and left site by then.
So it's reasonable to have people rummaging in and around our tents whilst we sleep?
Like I say, it's now seen as a race for the best stuff (well the alcohol and drugs mainly) so people are far less considered about who / where they take stuff from.
For me the message should be simple...If you want to get involved in 'tatting' then at least have the courtesy to wait around until late afternoon on the Monday to start. If you find personal items such as phones, wallets etc. then return these to the owner.
Better still volounteer for the clean up campaign and do it officially, whilst making a positive contribution.
Secret resales 2015
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Absolutely gutted... I sit for 3 days... My wireless internet then goes down the very second the tickets go on sale.
By the time Id got the details in my phone it was too late.
There has to be a coach ticket sale surely?