Trainwreck:Woodstock '99 Netflix Doc

[Alvoram]

1 hour ago, Padgey said:

Just watched it, typical Yanks can't handle a few beers and act like absolute pricks.

I don't think there's any need for xenophobic comments 😕 

Frat culture isn't representative of the entire population of the United States. 

[BlackZeppelin]

11 hours ago, Padgey said:

Just watched it, typical Yanks can't handle a few beers and act like absolute pricks.

Just watched it and must admit this was my conclusion. Ridiculously macho culture untempered by self irony.

[Alvoram]

Well.... Glastonbury related forums were the last place I expected to find such bigotry on public display. And nobody batting an eyelid. I don't see how xenophobia is any better than racism, sexism or any other kind of prejudice... But I'm clearly alone so I'll just shut up now. 😞 

[tarw]

6 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

Well.... Glastonbury related forums were the last place I expected to find such bigotry on public display. And nobody batting an eyelid. I don't see how xenophobia is any better than racism, sexism or any other kind of prejudice... But I'm clearly alone so I'll just shut up now. 😞 

You are not alone. 
 

I do wonder how the people who go to the festival now would view the travelers who used to be such a big part of it. Probably given the demonisation of travelling communities as dangerous leeches 

Edited August 14, 2022 by tarw
Adding

[CaledonianGonzo]

Gimme a documentary about the Gathering of the Juggalos.

[BlackZeppelin]

12 minutes ago, Alvoram said:

Well.... Glastonbury related forums were the last place I expected to find such bigotry on public display. And nobody batting an eyelid. I don't see how xenophobia is any better than racism, sexism or any other kind of prejudice... But I'm clearly alone so I'll just shut up now. 😞 

Yep, let's pretend there isn't a problem with US culture. Carry on.

[tarw]

2 minutes ago, BlackZeppelin said:

Yep, let's pretend there isn't a problem with US culture. Carry on.

There might be a problem with US culture. To me it’s the generalisations - “bloody yanks”. 
There is a problem with lumping all citizens of a country, age bracket, gender or race together. It leads to division and not likeminded people of all places/gender/race working together. 
 

I’ve even met nice South Africans

[BlackZeppelin]

2 minutes ago, tarw said:

There might be a problem with US culture. To me it’s the generalisations - “bloody yanks”. 
There is a problem with lumping all citizens of a country, age bracket, gender or race together. It leads to division and not likeminded people of all places/gender/race working together. 
 

I’ve even met nice South Africans

It's obviously not all citizens, it is always a bell curve. But the Woodstock Trainwreck highlights the particular issues with US culture.

Let's not Emperor's New clothes it, not all cultures are the same. Japanese cultural issues are different to British ones, Australian ones , Chinese ones. 

The US has a terrible problem with literalism, egoism and violence. 

Check out the bit with Kid Rock in episode 2 where the festival crosses the Rubicon.

Pure self indulgence with no safety checks.

[tarw]

12 minutes ago, BlackZeppelin said:

Let's not Emperor's New clothes it, not all cultures are the same. Japanese cultural issues are different to British ones, Australian ones , Chinese ones. .

I’m not “Emperor’s New Clothing “ it don’t build straw men. 
 

Yes all cultures have differences but the differences within those cultures is massive. 
 

I am sure that there is a Chinese person who has beliefs and values closer to mine than you than any random British person. 
 

Lumping people together using terms such as Frogs and Krauts or Yanks just fuels division 

[Alvoram]

50 minutes ago, BlackZeppelin said:

Yep, let's pretend there isn't a problem with US culture. Carry on.

American / US culture isn’t the problem… Certain sub cultures are, like frat culture. It’s your generalisation I take issue with. 

[BlackZeppelin]

1 hour ago, tarw said:

I’m not “Emperor’s New Clothing “ it don’t build straw men. 
 

Yes all cultures have differences but the differences within those cultures is massive. 
 

I am sure that there is a Chinese person who has beliefs and values closer to mine than you than any random British person. 
 

Lumping people together using terms such as Frogs and Krauts or Yanks just fuels division 

When have I used that language?

(As for equating the term Yanks, a collective they use proudly themselves,  with pejoratives like Frogs and Krauts- I mean, come on)

There were, of course, many at the event who were appalled at the behaviour. Some of the organisers were even hoping to re capture the hippy vibes of the 60s.

So of course there are massive differences within the culture, all those caveats apply to individual responses,  but we're talking about it as a cultural phenomenon.

If they ran the exact same event with the same conditions in 50 different places in the world, with the same age demographic etc etc, would you expect different outcomes?

Why do you think it happened this way in the States?

Why do those problematic sub-cultures emerge?

By the way, passing the buck to frat culture is just the same thing (are all frat college students like that or are you generalising?)

What problems does that point to?

Genuinely interested in your responses to the above, and genuinely disinterested in point scoring with claims of straw manning arguments.

If you feel like it you can steel man my argument before you respond.

Edited August 14, 2022 by BlackZeppelin

[The Nal]

FYI if you called someone from the south or anyone else not from New England area ish a "yank" you'd get a weird look. 

[tarw]

Sorry like you I don’t want to get into point scoring and straw man was me just being lazy. 
 

I didn’t want to get into a debate I was merely letting Alvoram know they were not alone in lamenting how much more judgemental the average Glastonbury goer is now. 
 

That’s not aimed at you it’s a generalisation 😉

[Skip997]

4 minutes ago, tarw said:

I didn’t want to get into a debate I was merely letting Alvoram know they were not alone in lamenting how much more judgemental the average Glastonbury goer is now.

Pretty sure it's always been the same, esp re anti American views.

[BlackZeppelin]

5 minutes ago, tarw said:

Sorry like you I don’t want to get into point scoring and straw man was me just being lazy. 
 

I didn’t want to get into a debate I was merely letting Alvoram know they were not alone in lamenting how much more judgemental the average Glastonbury goer is now. 
 

That’s not aimed at you it’s a generalisation 😉

Fair enough, no interest in upsetting anyone. All the best

[eddie_corrigan]

7 minutes ago, tarw said:

Sorry like you I don’t want to get into point scoring and straw man was me just being lazy. 
 

I didn’t want to get into a debate I was merely letting Alvoram know they were not alone in lamenting how much more judgemental the average Glastonbury goer is now. 
 

That’s not aimed at you it’s a generalisation 😉

Yup the amount of people I overheard complaining about the amount of scousers on site who must have bunked in did make me chuckle. In the end I made a point of saying to them “I know we’re everywhere aren’t we?” 

[Superscally]

On 8/9/2022 at 2:48 PM, Skip997 said:

The one I wrote about.

The only gig I saw this year which had a edge was Bob Vylan at about 3am on The Truth Stage.

That was edgy. Brilliant.

[tarw]

8 minutes ago, Skip997 said:

Pretty sure it's always been the same, esp re anti American views.

Not so sure that it was. Seemed to be anti Reagan/Bush/Trump rather than anti American to me. 

[Alvoram]

5 hours ago, BlackZeppelin said:

By the way, passing the buck to frat culture is just the same thing (are all frat college students like that or are you generalising?)

Saying ‘frat culture’ or ‘frat boy’ is different to saying ‘fraternity members…’ Frat culture is a cultural phenomenon that describes exactly this. ‘frat boy’ is defined by the Oxford dictionary as…

“a young man who behaves in a loud or stupid way, considered typical of members of some college fraternities (= clubs for male college students in the US)”

So yes, by the very meaning of the word… They’re all like that! 🙈

‘Yank’ or ‘Yankee’ may have it’s origins in the US civil war, and it may still be used by some Americans to describe themselves as being from the Northern States, opposed to the Southern / confederate states. But we all know perfectly well that it’s used here (and in other countries) as an offensive slur. 

[moogster]

This reminds me of a joke by... was it Hannah Gadsby? On how you should always punch up and not down, so there was not a lot of time left to make fun of Americans.. (Paraphrasing so not funny but you get the idea).

On the plus side festivals have done OK in the US since I think, bar the Astroworld thing?

[Alvoram]

1 hour ago, moogster said:

This reminds me of a joke by... was it Hannah Gadsby? On how you should always punch up and not down, so there was not a lot of time left to make fun of Americans.. (Paraphrasing so not funny but you get the idea).

On the plus side festivals have done OK in the US since I think, bar the Astroworld thing?

I think it’s the documentary on Sky that goes on to cover the beginning of Coachella, and how it was the polar opposite. Citing lessons learned from WS99. They even gave out a free water bottle to everybody on entry! 

First ever Coachella was just months later… 

[danbailey80]

Watched all 3. 

Yes it was a shit show and the promotors are incredible not to take responsibility… But…

im not convinced these men broke and burnt stuff because they were annoyed and disappointed. I think they are just c**ts. 
 

with all the footage they didn’t actually find that much footage of anyone saying “we are breaking and burning because we are annoyed about the price of food or the toilets” bollocks they are just arseholes.

Simple men away from their mummies for the first time. “oh look  a breast I’ll grab it”. Fucking Scum. 

Same as Reading/ Leeds that year. They weren’t annoyed about the toilets either. Just pathetic twats. 
 

and the rape stuff. I feel sick. Can’t really process it. The excuses from the promoters.. 

To me this film is about how revolting male behaviour can be…end of. 
 

 

 

Edited August 14, 2022 by danbailey80

[BlackZeppelin]

2 hours ago, Alvoram said:

Saying ‘frat culture’ or ‘frat boy’ is different to saying ‘fraternity members…’ Frat culture is a cultural phenomenon that describes exactly this. ‘frat boy’ is defined by the Oxford dictionary as…

“a young man who behaves in a loud or stupid way, considered typical of members of some college fraternities (= clubs for male college students in the US)”

So yes, by the very meaning of the word… They’re all like that! 🙈

‘Yank’ or ‘Yankee’ may have it’s origins in the US civil war, and it may still be used by some Americans to describe themselves as being from the Northern States, opposed to the Southern / confederate states. But we all know perfectly well that it’s used here (and in other countries) as an offensive slur. 

Well I guess you seem to think these are reasonable arguments 

So, to confirm 

1. You're happy to equate the term Yank with Kraut or Frog?

(Would be an interesting test!)

And

2. You're happy to say that your categorising of Frat House culture is ok as a generalisation, because it only refers to the problematic element of college fraternity members. 

Doesn't strike you that you're taking a general characterising of problematic elements  of a culture, taking umbrage that someone should do that,  and  then demonising a particular demographic within that culture ? 

"Frat Boys - they're all like that"

 You think that's helpful and more enlightened?

It's the same excuse some of  the organisers rolled out at the end of the movie, so I guess you've got company.

[gfa]

Been travelling so just watching this now. If the festival had been successful it would have really kickstarted the US festival culture i think. I wonder if it would have become a yearly event - a US glastonbury of sorts

[Alvoram]

9 minutes ago, BlackZeppelin said:

Well I guess you seem to think these are reasonable arguments 

So, to confirm 

1. You're happy to equate the term Yank with Kraut or Frog?

(Would be an interesting test!)

And

2. You're happy to say that your categorising of Frat House culture is ok as a generalisation, because it only refers to the problematic element of college fraternity members. 

Doesn't strike you that you're taking a general characterising of problematic elements  of a culture, taking umbrage that someone should do that,  and  then demonising a particular demographic within that culture ? 

"Frat Boys - they're all like that"

 You think that's helpful and more enlightened?

It's the same excuse some of  the organisers rolled out at the end of the movie, so I guess you've got company.

1) Yes, absolutely. When used by a none-American in this context. (BTW an American would never use 'Yank' only 'Yankee' but I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here.)

2) As pointed out in the previous post, that term relates ONLY to the problematic elements of the culture and those who perpetrate it. It's a term that is included in the dictionary. I'm sure you see the difference between using that term, and 'yanks' or even something like 'fraternity members' or even 'college kids.' But to clarify, when the term 'Yank' was used in this context, it was used in a way which implies it as typical behaviour of all Americans. To Quote: "typical Yanks can't handle a few beers and act like absolute pricks." When the term 'frat boy' was used, it is a truthful reflection of the sub culture actually responsible. 

As for the point I 'think' you're trying to make, if I'm right, then I actually agree with you, and concede that using that term is also in poor taste, and I am wrong to do it. Labelling any group of people by any kind of characteristic is only ever going to lead to the magnification of those characteristics, negative or positive, for better or worse. Point noted. 🙂