Should Nina Kraviz have been booked for Arcadia?

[gigpusher]

40 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

You are being misleading here. She was in favour of an oligarch being imprisoned for corruption. Putin pardoned him and up until the start of the Ukraine war he was living the highlife in Switzerland and England  

The Nadia claims are hearsay 

The entire court case for Khodorkovsky was a joke. Not saying he was a perfect human but he spent 10 years in prison for nothing because he dared to criticise Putin and his government. 

[Florian Saucer Attack]

2 minutes ago, t0paz said:

Or we could see if she weighs the same as a duck for irrefutable proof?

let's dump her in some water. If she floats she is pro-putin and the war and we will burn her at the stake.

If she drowns she is anti-putin and the war. She may be dead but she will have won over some strangers on the the internet 

[TheDayman]

54 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

You are being misleading here. She was in favour of an oligarch being imprisoned for corruption. Putin pardoned him and up until the start of the Ukraine war he was living the highlife in Switzerland and England  

The Nadia claims are hearsay 

No, I'm not.

Re: Khodorkovsky -

"Khodorkovsky, the oil tycoon who was once one of the richest men in Russia, was arrested in 2003 and charged with fraud and money laundering aftre a televised meeting with Putin in which he accused high-level Kremlin officials of corruption. The case was widely denounced as politically motivated, and, after nearly a decade in prison, Amnesty International declared him a prisoner of conscience. In 2015, just two days after calling a revolution in Russia “inevitable and necessary,” Khodorkovsky was charged in absentia with involvement in two murders"

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/07/how-russia-persecutes-its-dissidents-using-us-courts/566309/

Re: Pro-Putin -

"But Kraviz has also shown some tacit support for Putin over the years. In April 2014, a month after Russia’s annexation of Crimea, she posted a photo on Instagram of herself smiling and holding a cardboard cut-out of Putin holding a gun with a flower coming out of the barrel. (A representative for Kraviz told TIME after this article’s publication that a flower coming out of a gun is a symbol of peace and added, “We would suggest that you contact the festival to ask why they supplied these cut-outs.”) In 2016, Kraviz tweeted a meme of Putin at a rave, writing, “Don’t underestimate a Russki.” (Kraviz’s representative wrote that “The text and meme of this tweet had nothing to do with each other.)"

https://time.com/6176595/nina-kraviz-russia-ukraine-war/

Re Nadia -

Yes it's hearsay but it's also hearsay in the context of the above and other things such as being dropped from her record label for her, again, alleged being Pro-Putin.

https://www.nme.com/news/music/russia-dj-nina-kraviz-dropped-from-clone-distribution-over-alleged-pro-putin-views-3227208

Maybe it's all a misunderstanding. Fantastic if it is.

However until things are clarified, shes going to have that cloud hanging over her. Unfortunately and ultimately, that cloud is going to become Glastonbury's when she brings it along with her to the farm in a few weeks time.

Edited June 1, 2022 by TheDayman

[TheDayman]

17 minutes ago, t0paz said:

Or we could see if she weighs the same as a duck for irrefutable proof?

 

12 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

let's dump her in some water. If she floats she is pro-putin and the war and we will burn her at the stake.

If she drowns she is anti-putin and the war. She may be dead but she will have won over some strangers on the the internet 

I hear this is how her record label made the decision to drop her.

It's one thing to be supportive, it's another to be blind to what's in front of you.

Even if you don't believe any of the claims against her - which is absolutely fine - surely you can see how from a PR persepective, it doesn't look good for Glastonbury Festival when in the last month three music festivals and her own record label have dropped her over these alleged views?

[Florian Saucer Attack]

4 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

 

I hear this is how her record label made the decision to drop her.

It's one thing to be supportive, it's another to be blind to what's in front of you.

Even if you don't believe any of the claims against her - which is absolutely fine - surely you can see how from a PR persepective, it doesn't look good for Glastonbury Festival when in the last month three music festivals and her own record label have dropped her over these alleged views?

But what if the other festivals and her record labels used the same reductive reasoning as 'there ain't no smoke without fire?'

What if they are craven and dropped her for fear of a backlash irregardless if she is pro-putin and/or pro-war or not?

[TheDayman]

1 minute ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

But what if the other festivals and her record labels used the same reductive reasoning as 'there ain't no smoke without fire?'

What if they are craven and dropped her for fear of a backlash irregardless if she is pro-putin and/or pro-war or not?

Mate you're posing what-if's with no substantial evidence in the contrary to what I've put forward. As I said, if this is all a misunderstanding, fantastic! Why doesn't see clarify it?

Reductive reasoning? No, her record label reached out to her - as a business partner - to discuss the claims privately. Here's their statement as to how things went -

https://clone.nl/blog/trip/

Some highlights: 

"In the past, even after the annexation of the Crimea, Nina Kraviz has put forward several outings which can be taken as pro-Putin. Moreover she has clearly been flirting with CCCP/USSR-sentiments on several occasions, while the USSR was a regime that has stood for the oppression of minorities, has marginalised the LGBTQ+ communities, a regime which murdered millions of people! On Nina’s latest, upcoming compilation-album “All His Decisions” also a number of signs of USSR-flattery are to be found. This is raising questions that, in the light of the current Russian aggression, cannot be ignored."

"Of course it is her right to keep quiet as she chooses, but as a business partner we want to know what’s going on and what standpoint we should expect her to take on the situation. She however ignored personal requests to talk, moreover having her label manager giving unsatifying answers and poor excuses for not speaking out and not wanting to communicate in general. The communications with her label manager I considered rather manipulative, and her stances were being put forward in vague Putin-esque expressions like “she want’s peace” or “Of course she is against War”, wilfully lacking any meaningful conditions (Does she want Ukraine to surrender to put the war to a stop? Does she want Peace under Putin’s terms?). "

 

[Twiggy553]

Until she posted “what my countries relations have become” I was supporting her. Because lets face it Putin is a dictator and public pressure means absolutely sweet FA to him.

but since she posted that I agree she clearly has some dodgy views and should rightly be cancelled.

[Florian Saucer Attack]

19 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Mate you're posing what-if's with no substantial evidence in the contrary to what I've put forward. As I said, if this is all a misunderstanding, fantastic! Why doesn't see clarify it?

Reductive reasoning? No, her record label reached out to her - as a business partner - to discuss the claims privately. Here's their statement as to how things went -

https://clone.nl/blog/trip/

Some highlights: 

"In the past, even after the annexation of the Crimea, Nina Kraviz has put forward several outings which can be taken as pro-Putin. Moreover she has clearly been flirting with CCCP/USSR-sentiments on several occasions, while the USSR was a regime that has stood for the oppression of minorities, has marginalised the LGBTQ+ communities, a regime which murdered millions of people! On Nina’s latest, upcoming compilation-album “All His Decisions” also a number of signs of USSR-flattery are to be found. This is raising questions that, in the light of the current Russian aggression, cannot be ignored."

"Of course it is her right to keep quiet as she chooses, but as a business partner we want to know what’s going on and what standpoint we should expect her to take on the situation. She however ignored personal requests to talk, moreover having her label manager giving unsatifying answers and poor excuses for not speaking out and not wanting to communicate in general. The communications with her label manager I considered rather manipulative, and her stances were being put forward in vague Putin-esque expressions like “she want’s peace” or “Of course she is against War”, wilfully lacking any meaningful conditions (Does she want Ukraine to surrender to put the war to a stop? Does she want Peace under Putin’s terms?). "

 

So her label dropped her because she didn't want to voice her opinion. One thing is clear she is certainly a Mark and not a Jeremy.

I really didn't like the inflammatory language Serge at Clone is using ''Putin-esque expressions' as if the reader is suppose to think short replies is actual evidence of guilt. 

This talk of 'USSR sentiments.' I know she posted a picture of Berlin just after the USSR toppled Nazism. Russians are very proud of winning WW2 so I don't see that as being untoward. I assume we can all agree that the USSR beating Hitler is a good thing 

Are there other USSR sentiments she made that are more sinister? Is she on record of being in favour of the gulags or KGB? This is a genuine question

[gigpusher]

19 hours ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

So her label dropped her because she didn't want to voice her opinion. One thing is clear she is certainly a Mark and not a Jeremy.

I really didn't like the inflammatory language Serge at Clone is using ''Putin-esque expressions' as if the reader is suppose to think short replies is actual evidence of guilt. 

This talk of 'USSR sentiments.' I know she posted a picture of Berlin just after the USSR toppled Nazism. Russians are very proud of winning WW2 so I don't see that as being untoward. I assume we can all agree that the USSR beating Hitler is a good thing 

Are there other USSR sentiments she made that are more sinister? Is she on record of being in favour of the gulags or KGB? This is a genuine question

Well yes because her comments that @TheDaymanposted were about a man who was imprisoned in a gulag for 10 years for and Amnesty International described him as a prisoner of conscience. So she clearly doesn't have any issue with gulags. 

[MEGABOWL]

On 6/1/2022 at 1:43 PM, Leyrulion said:

The oppression is happening because of the silence imo. Simple fact is they're prioritising their own risk over others, we may all very well make the same decision in similar circumstances doesn't change that fact. 

The oppression is happening because those with the tools and the power to do so are oppressing others. No point shifting blame to those that aren’t responsible, especially when they’re also at risk of being oppressed. Unfair to judge people until you’ve walked in their shoes.

When MLK said that he had a decent number of Americans to aim at who weren't at any risk of speaking out and  yet weren't doing so. Entirely fair game IMO. We can’t assume the same applies to the average Russian person under Putins regime. 

[Gnomicide]

Gorn.

[Madyaker]

Not saying it's right or wrong but from the festival's POV it's probably for the best. 

Gutted for the guy that bought all  the Ukrainian flags.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Madyaker

[stuartbert two hats]

55 minutes ago, Gnomicide said:

Gorn.

 

[TheDayman]

Well, there we have it.

I wonder who's going to fill the void?

[Suprefan]

6 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Well, there we have it.

I wonder who's going to fill the void?

Aphex Twin, who else.

[stuie]

43 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Well, there we have it.

I wonder who's going to fill the void?

It's a shame Nastia is busy over in The Temple at that time! 😂

[blutarsky]

41 minutes ago, Suprefan said:

Aphex Twin, who else.

YES YES YES YES YES YES

Although that wouldn't help my scheduling... 

[gfa]

Nina is on the app (although probably just because its not updated yet)

[Suprefan]

26 minutes ago, gfa said:

Nina is on the app (although probably just because its not updated yet)

Putin hacked the app to keep her on.

[Watergirl]

16 hours ago, Madyaker said:

Gutted for the guy that bought all  the Ukrainian flags.

Bring the flags along to DakhaBrakha at the Pyramid and Go_A at John Peel.  I am sure they will really appreciate it (but don't block our view for too long!).

[bennyboi]

Blimey, you’d think she’s been over there actually shooting people. 

[stuie]

Nastia pulls out of Awakenings.  Fair play to her. She’s resolute in her beliefs and doesn’t want her name on artwork with Russian’s who haven’t ‘called a war a war’. I admire her strength and conviction.

https://mixmag.net/amp/nastia-awakenings-festival-cancel-ukraine-dj

 

[irnkrtn]

I have been thinking loads about this since reading through the thread. It's really difficult to get tone right written, so I want to make it the clearest thing ever that this is something I have been pondering rather than some form of whataboutery! 

I really don't know how I feel about cultural boycotts of individuals, because I both see the argument that individuals are often bought into the wider defence and promotion of the state, stand in for the state almost. But I also recognise cultural freedom matters, that subversive acts by their nature might not be understood by all audiences, questions on where responsibility lies to speak out all that stuff. Genuinely feel different case by case.

For Kraviz, I think some of the suggested infractions are spurious at best and feel more like genuine ignorance of identity - the USSR sympathies based on posting that famous and powerful photo of the Red Army taking Berlin I mean wow. Even if anyway entirely true, a longing for Communist Russia doesn't in any way mean you support Putin and comes with all manner of cultural and emotional ties that are more complex than RUSSIA BAD. At the same time, it seems like there's enough to say there's sympathy with the actions of the state currently. Still not sure how I feel about the concept as a whole but I do think it's right she isn't playing given the picture painted. 

I wonder how people feel about other artists on site who also might come under calls for a cultural boycott? I have only seen people talking about Kraviz but there are definitely other performers who, for example, might come under BDS as called for by Palestinian civil society or artists who have supported Erdogan. If you are supportive of cultural boycotting, do you think the festival should have a policy here? Is it down to individual stages? 

 

 

Edited June 10, 2022 by irnkrtn

[TheDayman]

26 minutes ago, irnkrtn said:

For Kraviz, I think some of the suggested infractions are spurious at best and feel more like genuine ignorance of identity

I think you'll find the arguments are far from spurious

[Simsy]

22 minutes ago, irnkrtn said:

For Kraviz, I think some of the suggested infractions are spurious at best and feel more like genuine ignorance of identity - the USSR sympathies based on posting that famous and powerful photo of the Red Army taking Berlin I mean wow. Even if anyway entirely true, a longing for Communist Russia doesn't in any way mean you support Putin and comes with all manner of cultural and emotional ties that are more complex than RUSSIA BAD. At the same time, it seems like there's enough to say there's sympathy with the actions of the state currently. Still not sure how I feel about the concept as a whole but I do think it's right she isn't playing given the picture painted. 

IMHO the problem with her posting the pic of the Red Army taking Berlin is that Putin has been saying the Ukrainian gov are Nazis and he invaded to stop the Nazis.

If he hadn't, it could just be interpreted as "I love my country, and Nazis are bad", which is hard to have a problem with. But posting pics of Russia crushing nazis when that's been used as the justification in Ukraine is more problematic.