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Should Nina Kraviz have been booked for Arcadia?


blutarsky
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49 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Haha, I was happy to run away but now I can't help but get involved!

I mostly agree too but I think we just need to be careful about lumping everything under the one banner... Is Nina:

Pro-Russia: Looks like it
Pro-Putin: Possibly, maybe even probably
Pro-War: I haven't seen anything to support that


 

1. Nothing wrong with being Pro-Russia, millions of people call it home that aren't psychopaths.

2. By being pro-putin, you are automatically pro-war imo - its part of the package

3 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Essentially, anybody with a profile in Russia at the moment who isn't speaking in support of war, you can be pretty damn certain they're against it. 

Not really, if a celebrity posted something pro-war it would be a PR disaster.

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Just now, gfa said:

 

Not really, if a celebrity posted something pro-war it would be a PR disaster.

Depends how international their following is, and how closely their links to the regime are, where they live, where their family are, where they see their future and any number of other factors. A sizeable number of Russian celebrities, bands etc have done exactly that. You don't hear about them, but you know, most Russians haven't got a fucking clue who our 'celebrities' are either. Come to that, when I come back to the UK, I look at Celebrity Masterchef, 'I'm a celebrity' etc and feel exactly the fucking same.

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Nina Kraviz is pro-Putin? Thing is, Russia these days doesn't sound like the kind of place where you can easily be anti-Putin without getting in some trouble, especially in wartime.

Sidenote: makes me roll my eyes a little bit how some people think of  Russians are these dim-witted sheep that believe all their government's lies, as if our countries aren't also full of idiots that easily fall for propaganda. I'm noticing more and more anti-Russian sentiment these days; other day I was with some friends and I mentioned that I would love to visit Russia someday - cue me getting weird looks as if I had just said something horrible.

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11 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Now is not the time to ‘convert’ Nina kraviz. She finds herself on the wrong side of the debate and that should be recognised by the organisers. I’m no troll. 

If you assumption is correct (and that's a pretty big if unless you have some further info you have not shared yet) and she is pro-Putin and pro-war how is this not the time to convert her? 

Do you wanna wait until after the war and after Putin has gone? 

At this point your arguements would make more sense if you were a troll

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11 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Essentially, anybody with a profile in Russia at the moment who isn't speaking in support of war, you can be pretty damn certain they're against it. 

I don't know pretty much every oligarch has come out and said something vaguely against it and I don't buy their bullshit. 

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1 minute ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Nina Kraviz is pro-Putin? Thing is, Russia these days doesn't sound like the kind of place where you can easily be anti-Putin without getting in some trouble, especially in wartime.

Sidenote: makes me roll my eyes a little bit how some people think of  Russians are these dim-witted sheep that believe all their government's lies, as if our countries aren't also full of idiots that easily fall for propaganda. I'm noticing more and more anti-Russian sentiment these days; other day I was with some friends and I mentioned that I would love to visit Russia someday - cue me getting weird looks as if I had just said something horrible.

I’ve been to Russia several times. Moscow is beautiful. 

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2 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

If you assumption is correct (and that's a pretty big if unless you have some further info you have not shared yet) and she is pro-Putin and pro-war how is this not the time to convert her? 

Do you wanna wait until after the war and after Putin has gone? 

At this point your arguements would make more sense if you were a troll

The world doesn’t owe Nina Kraviz a chance of redemption you know. As has been said elsewhere, she is fairly despicable once she starts rabbitting on but until now people never thought of cancelling her. This is (rightly) different. 

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18 minutes ago, Mardy said:

Essentially, anybody with a profile in Russia at the moment who isn't speaking in support of war, you can be pretty damn certain they're against it. 

Way off the mark in the case of NK. A known rotter and nationalist. She shouldn't have been booked.

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1 minute ago, Blisterpack said:

The world doesn’t owe Nina Kraviz a chance of redemption you know. As has been said elsewhere, she is fairly despicable once she starts rabbitting on but until now people never thought of cancelling her. This is (rightly) different. 

Not sure about that one chief https://gal-dem.com/nina-kraviz-cornrows-whiteness-music-industry/ 

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Just my opinion but.. 

If you are a Russian public figure, and you are doing anything other than actively denouncing Putin (pro-Putin or neutral) right now, I think you should be excluded entirely from pretty much everything. You certainly shouldn't be given a stage at Glastonbury?! Not sure what the counter is to this, but I'm open to conversation. 

Edited by Freddyflintstonree
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8 minutes ago, Freddyflintstonree said:

Just my opinion but.. 

If you are a Russian public figure, and you are doing anything other than acitvely denouncing Putin (pro-Putin or neutral) right now, I think you should be excluded entirely from pretty much everything. You certainly shouldn't be given a stage at Glastonbury?! Not sure what the counter is to this, but I'm open to conversation. 

I don't think this is entirely fair. There's a lot of people who would be put in real risk of assassination / family abduction / severe punishment if they spoke up. Depends how embedded they are within the state, media, industry, if they have a clean escape route over the border, and so on.

It's a bit of a cloistered take for us to sit here, cluck our tongue and be like 'well, in this position, I would risk my family'.

I'm part-Ukrainian and as strongly opposed to war as you can get, and agree with your sentiment overall, but there are legitimate caveats. I think the slope from "all Russians are at fault" to banning Tchaikovsky is a slippery and rather troublesome one, even unintentionally. It's a point @TheDayman was making well in the main thread — edit: and getting called a Putin sympathiser for, which is pathetic.

I back the part in bold, though. And in the case of NK, it's black and white. She only responded to the war once harangued by her fellow DJs and even then it was a woefully weak paean for peace. Her allegiances are well known and the Arcadia line-up is sullied by her presence.

Edited by Ddiamondd
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6 minutes ago, Freddyflintstonree said:

Just my opinion but.. 

If you are a Russian public figure, and you are doing anything other than actively denouncing Putin (pro-Putin or neutral) right now, I think you should be excluded entirely from pretty much everything. You certainly shouldn't be given a stage at Glastonbury?! Not sure what the counter is to this, but I'm open to conversation. 

Should we also ban from Glastonbury all the artists/musicians that didn't actively denounce our leaders when we invaded the middle-east?

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5 minutes ago, Freddyflintstonree said:

Just my opinion but.. 

If you are a Russian public figure, and you are doing anything other than actively denouncing Putin (pro-Putin or neutral) right now, I think you should be excluded entirely from pretty much everything. You certainly shouldn't be given a stage at Glastonbury?! Not sure what the counter is to this, but I'm open to conversation. 

One counter is they’re individuals, not state representatives, and individuals shouldn’t be punished for the actions of their state.

Another counter is that you don’t know their personal situation, hypothetically there could be a threat to family etc within Russia if they, as a Russian public figure, speak out.

Another is that a “cultural boycott” of anyone with a Russian passport is xenophobic. It’s been suggested in this thread and others that this is should be the case because it works, and the South African Apartheid boycott has been pointed to, but it’s worth pointing out that South African exiled musicians who were anti-apartheid were not excluded outside of South Africa (Miriam Makeba and Hugh Masekela).

Whether any of the above applies to NK is another issue. I personally think she’s a massive bell. 

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1 minute ago, Ddiamondd said:

I don't think this is entirely fair. There's a lot of people who would be put in real risk of assassination / family abduction / severe punishment if they spoke up. Depends how embedded they are within the state, media, industry, if they have a clean escape route over the border, and so on.

It's a bit of a cloistered take for us to sit here, cluck ours tongue and be like 'well, in this position, I would risk my family'.

I'm part-Ukrainian and as strongly opposed to war as you can get, and agree with your sentiment overall, but there are legitimate caveats. I think the slope from "all Russians are at fault" to banning Tchaikovsky is a slippery and rather troublesome one, even unintentionally. It's a point @TheDayman was making well in the main thread.

I back the part in bold, though. And in the case of NK, it's black and white. She only responded to the war once harangued by her fellow DJs and even then it was a woefully weak paean for peace. Her allegiances are well known and the Arcadia line-up is sullied by her presence.

Yep one of my colleagues has managed to get out to Armenia but had a hairy time at the airport because his wife had been pictured at a protest. I know other colleagues who want to leave but are trying to organise their whole family leaving. It isn't as straightforward as many believe but I would say if you have made Pro-Putin statements in the past you can't expect a free pass now. 

If you have never, ever said anything political then chances are you have never supported Putin and are just too scared to say anything and for me that's fair enough. Families etc are at risk and if you don't usually get involved in political matters remaining that way is fine.. 

If however you posted this 

 

image.thumb.png.0ea66913f179f1dff93dd8bfab36217c.png

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6 minutes ago, Ddiamondd said:

I

I'm part-Ukrainian and as strongly opposed to war as you can get, and agree with your sentiment overall, but there are legitimate caveats. I think the slope from "all Russians are at fault" to banning Tchaikovsky is a slippery and rather troublesome one, even unintentionally.

Worth pointing out this insanity has already happened in the UK - https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/12/cardiff-orchestra-defends-cut-tchaikovsky-concert-russia

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2 minutes ago, TASHMA BWABWE said:

Dehumanising individual Russians and their autonomy plays directly into Putin’s hands.

Removing people's livelihoods, cancelling them simply for being Russian and failing to declare their political allegiance when they may face serious consequences for doing so is seriously poor form as a matter of principle.

What about if they have declared their political allegiances and those allegiances are towards Putin. I think most people on this thread agree that you should look at the person but if that person has demonstrated questionable politics in the past and there is a war going on caused by the person she has supported and the festival is supposedly raising money for victims of that war then I think it is perfectly fine to say she shouldn't be on a stage. 

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My (Russian) wife has been up a couple of times to London in the last month to protest outside the Russian embassy. I haven’t. I’ve been very quiet. Mainly because I’m hoping I can get back to Moscow soon and you know, ship all my stuff over here, see my friends, finish off all the things I didn’t have a chance to do when I legged it out of the country and over to Istanbul a month ago after 17 years in Russia. I really don’t want my visa cancelled and to be banned for the next 5 years. Does my reticence against speaking out in public mean I shouldn’t go to Glastonbury this year, then? 

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21 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

The world doesn’t owe Nina Kraviz a chance of redemption you know. As has been said elsewhere, she is fairly despicable once she starts rabbitting on but until now people never thought of cancelling her. This is (rightly) different. 

No it doesn't but she has not booked to redeem herself. She has been booked to do a DJ set 

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1 minute ago, Mardy said:

My (Russian) wife has been up a couple of times to London in the last month to protest outside the Russian embassy. I haven’t. I’ve been very quiet. Mainly because I’m hoping I can get back to Moscow soon and you know, ship all my stuff over here, see my friends, finish off all the things I didn’t have a chance to do when I legged it out of the country and over to Istanbul a month ago after 17 years in Russia. I really don’t want my visa cancelled and to be banned for the next 5 years. Does my reticence against speaking out in public mean I shouldn’t go to Glastonbury this year, then? 

Ticket revoked then!

but seriously I suppose the flip side is a collective push from people like NK, Medvedev and Khabib could have an impact so some would see them as having a responsibility.

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1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

What about if they have declared their political allegiances and those allegiances are towards Putin. I think most people on this thread agree that you should look at the person but if that person has demonstrated questionable politics in the past and there is a war going on caused by the person she has supported and the festival is supposedly raising money for victims of that war then I think it is perfectly fine to say she shouldn't be on a stage. 

Can you post examples of these questionable politics? 

All I've seen posted on here is a Putin meme and an article about a questionable hair style and how she dared to use the word 'ghetto' in one of her tracks despite not being black or Jewish 

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4 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

No it doesn't but she has not booked to redeem herself. She has been booked to do a DJ set 

There’s plenty of other DJ’s out there. I don’t think she should be getting bookings at places I’m going to and I don’t think she should be getting booked at any place that is considered politically aware.

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1 minute ago, Mardy said:

My (Russian) wife has been up a couple of times to London in the last month to protest outside the Russian embassy. I haven’t. I’ve been very quiet. Mainly because I’m hoping I can get back to Moscow soon and you know, ship all my stuff over here, see my friends, finish off all the things I didn’t have a chance to do when I legged it out of the country and over to Istanbul a month ago after 17 years in Russia. I really don’t want my visa cancelled and to be banned for the next 5 years. Does my reticence against speaking out in public mean I shouldn’t go to Glastonbury this year, then? 

Do you have a history of supporting Putin? 

Are you being paid money by the festival to be there? 

I think I have categorically stated I have no problem with people being afraid and not being as demonstrative as a result. I've even said if my Russian colleagues who want to leave their country could get here and need a place to stay I would help them just like I would my Ukrainian colleagues but I don't think you should be able to be openly supportive of a regime and then be booked to play festivals at a time when there are ongoing sanctions against a country because of the actions of that regime. 

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37 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

 

No you didn’t misinterpret me. I think ALL Russians should be not booked. That is what cultural sanctions mean. And to a country like Russia - which has a huge cultural heritage - it will, and should, hurt. I don’t dislike Russians. I just think that this is a useful tool in the sanctions toolbox and should be used. 

Well, we're going to disagree so.

I won't bother getting in to it, other efesters have already articulated my view very well.

I will however point out that Nina Kraviz isn't Russian culture. It's her political position that has called in to question the validity of her place at the farm, not her nationality.

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1 minute ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

Can you post examples of these questionable politics? 

All I've seen posted on here is a Putin meme and an article about a questionable hair style and how she dared to use the word 'ghetto' in one of her tracks despite not being black or Jewish 

I also recall she posted a picture of a Soviet Flag being hiked up in Berlin during WW2 semi recently and there was a kick off over that.

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