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Should Nina Kraviz have been booked for Arcadia?


blutarsky
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42 minutes ago, Quark said:

Without intending to be a dick (but if I am I'll take that hit) can this be picked up in the Glasto Politics thread in the other part of the forum please?  Obviously an important topic and one to discuss, but after 2 years of hell in a handcart we've finally got an actual festival to look forward to and the whole forum has become far more enjoyable as a result.

Personally, and maybe selfishly (again, don't care if it is), it's nice not to have to avoid entire threads due to the risk of walking into yet another argument.

Rant ends.

Lots of debate on this - I think if it's moved to the Discussion forum it will get lost, and derail another thread. As it's about a confirmed booking for the upcoming edition of the festival, I figure it's appropriate to have a thread in the Glastonbury forum about it. 

Personally I'm on board with @Florian Saucer Attack's view: "If Nina Kraviz is actually pro Putin and pro war then maybe it's better she goes to events like Glastonbury and meets people with different view points and maybe that will change her mind. Rather than shunning her and other Russian artists which might lead to them doubling down on their beliefs"

Given the Russian State's media control and iron rule, and the fact NK will presumably have family living in Russia, I can understand her not taking a strong stand. Not everyone has steadfast convictions / morals etc.

Anyway, I say invite people to come and learn, don't exclude them and isolate them which could lead to them becoming further entrenched in their position. The question is whether she's of a view where her mind could be changed or view could be widened. 

Edited by blutarsky
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3 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

  

Lots of debate on this - I think if it's moved to the Discussion forum it will get lost, and derail another thread. As it's about a confirmed booking for the upcoming edition of the festival, I figure it's appropriate to have a thread in the Glastonbury forum about it. 

Personally I'm on board with @Florian Saucer Attack's view: "If Nina Kraviz is actually pro Putin and pro war then maybe it's better she goes to events like Glastonbury and meets people with different view points and maybe that will change her mind. Rather than shunning her and other Russian artists which might lead to them doubling down on their beliefs"

Given the Russian State's media control and iron rule, and the fact NK will presumably have family living in Russia, I can understand her not taking a strong stand. Not everyone has steadfast convictions / morals etc.

Anyway, I say invite people to come and learn, don't exclude them and isolate them which could lead to them becoming further entrenched in their position. The question is whether she's of a view where her mind could be changed or view could be widened. 

Hitler could have sold his watercolours in the craft fields and he’d have buzzed on the vegetarian offers on hand. Think of how he might have turned out if he’d come to Glastonbury. 

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2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Hitler could have sold his watercolours in the craft fields and he’d have buzzed on the vegetarian offers on hand. Think of how he might have turned out if he’d come to Glastonbury. 

It didn't start until 25 years after WW2 mate. 

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1 hour ago, blutarsky said:

  

Lots of debate on this - I think if it's moved to the Discussion forum it will get lost, and derail another thread. As it's about a confirmed booking for the upcoming edition of the festival, I figure it's appropriate to have a thread in the Glastonbury forum about it. 

Personally I'm on board with @Florian Saucer Attack's view: "If Nina Kraviz is actually pro Putin and pro war then maybe it's better she goes to events like Glastonbury and meets people with different view points and maybe that will change her mind. Rather than shunning her and other Russian artists which might lead to them doubling down on their beliefs"

Given the Russian State's media control and iron rule, and the fact NK will presumably have family living in Russia, I can understand her not taking a strong stand. Not everyone has steadfast convictions / morals etc.

Anyway, I say invite people to come and learn, don't exclude them and isolate them which could lead to them becoming further entrenched in their position. The question is whether she's of a view where her mind could be changed or view could be widened. 

Haha, I was happy to run away but now I can't help but get involved!

I mostly agree too but I think we just need to be careful about lumping everything under the one banner... Is Nina:

Pro-Russia: Definitely
Pro-Russian State: Looks like it
Pro-Putin: Possibly, maybe even probably
Pro-War: I haven't seen anything to support that


*Edit: I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with being Pro-Russia, I just think it's worth being a little more defined

Edited by TheDayman
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1 minute ago, TheDayman said:

Haha, I was happy to run away but now I can't help but get involved!

I mostly agree too but I think we just need to be careful about lumping everything under the one banner... Is Nina:

Pro-Russia: Looks like it
Pro-Putin: Possibly, maybe even probably
Pro-War: I haven't seen that to support that

Yeah, caution needed. If she's actively Pro-Putin then the festival shouldn't be paying/promoting her in my view. If she's just remaining neutral then the festival offers a platform for her to be swayed, and maybe express a view. 

Fuck, life is difficult. Nothing's binary is it. Except this:  

 

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2 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Haha, I was happy to run away but now I can't help but get involved!

I mostly agree too but I think we just need to be careful about lumping everything under the one banner... Is Nina:

Pro-Russia: Looks like it
Pro-Putin: Possibly, maybe even probably
Pro-War: I haven't seen that to support that


 

Mate, apologies for the fuck you. But…. looking for reasons to book someone who clearly shouldn’t be there for reasons one and two and possibly three is baffling to me. Festival goers standard ng up and telling her to just do one would be brilliant. 

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1 minute ago, Field Commander Jefferson said:

Where is this "pro war" stuff coming from?

 

From what I can make out, because she hasn't actively condemned the war (she called for peace on insta I think) some have taken that as being pro-war. A "if you're not with us, you're against us" stance, if you will.

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3 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

Yeah, caution needed. If she's actively Pro-Putin then the festival shouldn't be paying/promoting her in my view. If she's just remaining neutral then the festival offers a platform for her to be swayed, and maybe express a view. 

Fuck, life is difficult. Nothing's binary is it. Except this:  

 

One of the world superpowers is killing the citizens of its sovereign European neighbours. How can anyone be ‘neutral’ about that?

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2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Hitler could have sold his watercolours in the craft fields and he’d have buzzed on the vegetarian offers on hand. Think of how he might have turned out if he’d come to Glastonbury. 

I'm 90% certain that you are just a troll.

You told me to grow up when I made a direct comparison Russian colonialism in the 21st century to British and American colonialism in the 21st century but you are now comparing Nina Kraviz to Hitler?

Despite this I will dignify your argument with a response. If Hitler after WW1 met an inclusive open minded community that showed him different viewpoints then maybe he wouldn't have taken the path he did. 

I recommend you look up the work off Daryl Davis. A black man who has spent his life befriending KKK members and has managed to successfully convert KKK members into non-racists 

Assuming Nina Kraviz is pro-Putin and pro-war, maybe she will meet her Daryl Davis at Glastonbury 

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8 minutes ago, blutarsky said:

Yeah, caution needed. If she's actively Pro-Putin then the festival shouldn't be paying/promoting her in my view. If she's just remaining neutral then the festival offers a platform for her to be swayed, and maybe express a view. 

Fuck, life is difficult. Nothing's binary is it. Except this:  

 

Well, I prefer the remixes tbf...

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1 minute ago, Blisterpack said:

One of the world superpowers is killing the citizens of its sovereign European neighbours. How can anyone be ‘neutral’ about that?

What I mean is perhaps she’s not stating an opinion for fear of reprisals. That’s not beyond the realm of possibility. 
If that is the case I feel it’s understandable, even though I think I’d personally feel compelled to speak up for what I believed was right. 
This is hypothetical though because A, I’ve not been in that situation, and B, we don’t know her true views - those who have researched it haven’t found compelling evidence, just some bits and pieces that could strengthen suspicions and speculation. 

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9 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Pro-Russia: Looks like it
Pro-Putin: Possibly, maybe even probably
Pro-War: I haven't seen that to support that


 

Nothing inherently wrong with being Pro-Russia. The Russians who want to over throw Putin and install a better government are all probably Pro-Russian

Noam Chomsky is pro-American despite being opposed to most of America's foreign policies 

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My take is I have no problem with her being at the festival but I do have a problem with her being paid to perform at the festival. Everyone seems to think that she can go around the festival and change her whole mindset but the chances of that happening are highly unlikely. She is more likely to perform, get her pay packet and leave. 

There a lots of Russian athletes who may not even agree with the actions of Putin who are not getting the chance to perform because of sanctions whilst I feel sorry for those individual people I think sanctions against those who perform under the flag of Russia are an appropriate response to what is happening. 

If a person who was strongly anti-putin was performing at the festival even though they were Russian that would be fine but people who have made statements supporting Putin should be treated the same as the oligarchs etc that have been sanctioned. I believe the phrase you lie with the dogs you get fleas applies here. 

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2 minutes ago, Blisterpack said:

Mate, apologies for the fuck you. But…. looking for reasons to book someone who clearly shouldn’t be there for reasons one and two and possibly three is baffling to me. Festival goers standard ng up and telling her to just do one would be brilliant. 

No worries, mate. I completely appreciated the sensitivity of the topic.

Look, I actually agree with you for the most part. I don't think it's in the right taste to book her and that's why I think she'll probably get dropped. Where I think we're differing is the motivation to drop her. I think it should be because of views she's expressed in the past, not just because she's from Russia. (I may have even misinterpreted your meaning here earlier too).

My worry is when we draw lines around nationalities. Lending from your example, Oskar Schindler, a German and member of the Nazi party during WWII, is credited for saving the lives of 1,200 jews. Sometimes things aren't as black and white as we'd like hence my reply when I took your comment as meaning that every Russian needs to be targeted.

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12 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

Nothing inherently wrong with being Pro-Russia. The Russians who want to over throw Putin and install a better government are all probably Pro-Russian

Noam Chomsky is pro-American despite being opposed to most of America's foreign policies 

Absolutely agree. Russians, like everyone else in world, should be proud of where they come from. Being proud of your country is different than being proud of your governments choices.

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33 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

I'm 90% certain that you are just a troll.

You told me to grow up when I made a direct comparison Russian colonialism in the 21st century to British and American colonialism in the 21st century but you are now comparing Nina Kraviz to Hitler?

Despite this I will dignify your argument with a response. If Hitler after WW1 met an inclusive open minded community that showed him different viewpoints then maybe he wouldn't have taken the path he did. 

I recommend you look up the work off Daryl Davis. A black man who has spent his life befriending KKK members and has managed to successfully convert KKK members into non-racists 

Assuming Nina Kraviz is pro-Putin and pro-war, maybe she will meet her Daryl Davis at Glastonbury 

Now is not the time to ‘convert’ Nina kraviz. She finds herself on the wrong side of the debate and that should be recognised by the organisers. I’m no troll. 

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16 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

Absolutely agree. Russians, like everyone else in world, should be proud of where they come from. Being proud of your country is different than being proud of your governments choices.

I’m pro- British, anti most of what Britain does. That’s pretty normal everywhere I reckon. Don’t get your point. 

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If you even stand up and say you're for peace in Russia at the moment, I'd say that's a pretty bold statement and puts you agains the authorities, it's not exactly toeing the government line. There's a lot of misunderstanding on this thread of what the situation is like in Russia for ordinary citizens, let alone someone with a public profile.

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24 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

No worries, mate. I completely appreciated the sensitivity of the topic.

Look, I actually agree with you for the most part. I don't think it's in the right taste to book her and that's why I think she'll probably get dropped. Where I think we're differing is the motivation to drop her. I think it should be because of views she's expressed in the past, not just because she's from Russia. (I may have even misinterpreted your meaning here earlier too).

My worry is when we draw lines around nationalities. Lending from your example, Oskar Schindler, a German and member of the Nazi party during WWII, is credited for saving the lives of 1,200 jews. Sometimes things aren't as black and white as we'd like hence my reply when I took your comment as meaning that every Russian needs to be targeted.

 

24 minutes ago, TheDayman said:

No worries, mate. I completely appreciated the sensitivity of the topic.

Look, I actually agree with you for the most part. I don't think it's in the right taste to book her and that's why I think she'll probably get dropped. Where I think we're differing is the motivation to drop her. I think it should be because of views she's expressed in the past, not just because she's from Russia. (I may have even misinterpreted your meaning here earlier too).

My worry is when we draw lines around nationalities. Lending from your example, Oskar Schindler, a German and member of the Nazi party during WWII, is credited for saving the lives of 1,200 jews. Sometimes things aren't as black and white as we'd like hence my reply when I took your comment as meaning that every Russian needs to be targeted.

No you didn’t misinterpret me. I think ALL Russians should be not booked. That is what cultural sanctions mean. And to a country like Russia - which has a huge cultural heritage - it will, and should, hurt. I don’t dislike Russians. I just think that this is a useful tool in the sanctions toolbox and should be used. 

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