When will covid end ? Please be nice and respectful to others

[fred quimby]

1 hour ago, Neil said:

chARLY TRYING TO BUMP HIS MUM OFF BY THE LOOK OF IT

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/feb/10/covid-live-news-support-for-authoritarianism-grows-in-pandemic-nz-sees-record-cases-amid-protests

Can you imagine if she dies in her platinum jubbly year because of Charles. Then he has to become King. The most unpopular king for a very very long time. Let's face it he won't be popular anyway  but this would take it to another level

[Fuzzy Afro]

6 hours ago, fraybentos1 said:

On the contrary, Scotland’s strategy seems to be doing everything England does but a few weeks after for the sake of looking more sensible and cautious. If it goes fine in England expect Scotland to follow a month agter 

 

Not sure this argument really applies anymore. England first removed face nappies almost 7 months ago (albeit they did get reinstated for a couple of months within that). Scotland has NEVER removed them. 

[Neil]

13 minutes ago, fred quimby said:

Can you imagine if she dies in her platinum jubbly year because of Charles. Then he has to become King. The most unpopular king for a very very long time. Let's face it he won't be popular anyway  but this would take it to another level

He also met pritti Patel so if he bumps her all is forgiven. 

[fred quimby]

6 minutes ago, Neil said:

He also met pritti Patel so if he bumps her all is forgiven. 

😃

[zahidf]

Bad idea. Even if not publicised, should keep sampling it

 

[Neil]

1 hour ago, zahidf said:

Bad idea. Even if not publicised, should keep sampling it

I think they'll keep the ons survey going they'll need it when they've ended free testing 

 

[steviewevie]

 

[Neil]

16 hours ago, blutarsky said:

Suggesting Johnson is "just making calls" rather than "playing politics" is laughable. 

For a start, every single decision a politician makes is "playing politics" (unless they're spectacularly thick) so it's a meaningless phrase. 

But the main point is, if you think Johnson isn't keenly aware of the optics of any decision, you're the most one-eyed partisan cheerleader there's ever been - and Britain's most self-absorbed leader ever thanks you for it. 

playing politics is top of his mind, as he keeps accusing others of doing that.

[lost]

The people calling for more spending on Covid are shouting at the clouds. U.S inflation came in at 7.5% yesterday, the last time that happened interest rates were well over 11%. The markets are suddenly re-pricing all that lovely debt we've taken on to fight coivd. We are probably back at that point when labour left office and left the note saying "sorry there is no money left we've spent it all" 

[hodgey123]

2 hours ago, Barry Fish said:

Yeah its scary.

You only have to drop into the politics thread to see how the general person is just unattached from the reality of this stuff.  Anyone calling for continued restrictions up to enhanced sick pay needs to give their heads a slap and ask themsleves where is the money coming from and at what cost when we get it.

The amount of debt we have taken from Covid is eye watering obscene and then you have to factor in the structural issues we have.  Its all very well shouting its all the mean tories fault etc but its about as relevant as when Labour got blamed for a world banking crisis.

But Labour did get blamed for that crisis, and have been unable to shake it ever since. Why should the same not apply to the Conservatives, particularly when you factor in the eye-watering waste (£37bn track and trace) and fraud (PPE)?

[mcshed]

Also the answer to not having enough money is not to strangle the economy with more austerity. Money needs to be spent sensibly (not bunged to Tories' mates) and taxes need to be raised sensibly (not targeting workers like the NI rise) this is a hard problem to solve and how well or badly we manage it will define life in the UK over the next decades. Do we want Boris doing it who doesn't know if he's at a party without someone telling him? Do we want Liz Truss doing it who despite being foreign secretary doesn't know the difference between the Baltic and the Black Sea?

[Neil]

1 minute ago, mcshed said:

taxes need to be raised sensibly (not targeting workers

theres only workers to provide resources for others to make use of:-) 

[lost]

The question is surely if we let Starmer do it and he's bound by the basic laws of economics and the bond markets how will the Corbynista's in his own party react?

[mcshed]

Just now, Neil said:

theres only workers to provide resources for others to make use of:-) 

If there is a tax increase on earnings shouldn't there at the very least be an equal one on Capital Gains? Why is the basic rate of tax on dividends 7.5%? 

[lost]

3 minutes ago, mcshed said:

 Why is the basic rate of tax on dividends 7.5%? 

Corp tax going to 25% so 25 + 7.5 = 32.5%.. PAYE income tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% 

Both around the same level.

[lost]

Its a massive challenge for anyone who takes it on. Since the invention of the internet governments have been struggling on how best to tax work done and things bought in "cyberspace" rather than at a physical location within a nations borders. I've actually thought that if the work from home trend takes hold it could easily become work from anywhere in the world and the same thing that's happened to corporation tax could happen to personal taxation. We could be stuck with a country full of old people who pay little tax because they are living off a pension and yet using the NHS alot whilst the youngsters are working on a laptop from a beach in Bali whilst paying no or little tax.

[mcshed]

2 hours ago, lost said:

Corp tax going to 25% so 25 + 7.5 = 32.5%.. PAYE income tax 20% + NI 12% = 32% 

Both around the same level.

I'm not quite sure on the logic behind this, if an individual is receiving income from dividends based on their investments what does the level of corporation tax have to do with it? Are you arguing that the company paying out the dividend has already paid Corporation Tax so that's come out of the same pot as the dividend?

[lost]

32 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I'm not quite sure on the logic behind this, if an individual is receiving income from dividends based on their investments what does the level of corporation tax have to do with it? Are you arguing that the company paying out the dividend has already paid Corporation Tax so that's come out of the same pot as the dividend?

Well the tax didn't used to exist (under labour) it was brought in to bring salaried and self employed via a limited company workers closer together. So yes an employed plumber that works for say pimlico plumbers will pay NI and income tax at basic level. Your local plumber who works for himself will pay corporation tax on the money he takes in and then the 7.5% on dividends he takes out of his own company at basic rate level. 

This is the old system it replaced which I used to work as an IT contractor under,  all my dividends at basic rate were tax free:

Quote

Tax on dividends earned before April 2016

Before April 2016, dividends were taxed differently. Any dividends you earned were deemed to have been taxed at 10% before they were paid to you. 

This was regardless of whether you chose to reinvest them or had dividends paid in cash. The 10% deduction resulted in investors being given a tax credit. This meant that:

Basic-rate taxpayers had no further tax to pay. 

Non-taxpayers also had this tax deducted and couldn't claim it back. 

Higher-rate taxpayers paid dividend tax at 32.5% – but after the tax credit, this became an effective tax rate of 25%.

Additional-rate taxpayers paid dividend tax at 37.5% – but after the tax credit, this became an effective tax rate of 30.6%.

But how did this 'effective tax rate' work?

For every £90 in dividends a higher-rate taxpayer received, they were given a £10 tax credit, which makes a 'gross' dividend of £100. 

Applying the rate of 32.5% to £100 gave £32.50 tax due. But this was reduced by £10 - the amount of the tax credit - to give a remaining liability of £22.50. 

As a percentage of the £90 received, £22.50 is 25%, so this was the effective rate of tax the shareholder actually pays. 

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by lost

[mcshed]

4 hours ago, lost said:

Well the tax didn't used to exist (under labour) it was brought in to bring salaried and self employed via a limited company workers closer together. So yes an employed plumber that works for say pimlico plumbers will pay NI and income tax at basic level. Your local plumber who works for himself will pay corporation tax on the money he takes in and then the 7.5% on dividends he takes out of his own company at basic rate level. 

This is the old system it replaced which I used to work as an IT contractor under,  all my dividends at basic rate were tax free:

 

Ok but Barnabus P Moneybags gets a healthy income of dividends from the stock investments that he owns. Most dividends are not being paid out to self employed plumbers. Why is that income being levied at 7.5% basic rate?

[lost]

9 minutes ago, mcshed said:

Ok but Barnabus P Moneybags gets a healthy income of dividends from the stock investments that he owns. Most dividends are not being paid out to self employed plumbers. Why is that income being levied at 7.5% basic rate?

Barnabus P Moneybags income will be in the higher rate we are talking about the basic rate which very few people will hit the sweet spot to have say normal income at personal allowance level and then dividends in that band which is why its probably not worth the government decimating small businesses to target people at that level. Remember you get £20k a year share isa allowance which if used over a 40 year career allows you to hold £800k of dividend paying stock tax free. The moderately well off who hold stock won't be paying this tax they will use tax shelters.

Edited February 11, 2022 by lost

[Neil]

5 hours ago, mcshed said:

I'm not quite sure on the logic behind this, if an individual is receiving income from dividends based on their investments what does the level of corporation tax have to do with it? Are you arguing that the company paying out the dividend has already paid Corporation Tax so that's come out of the same pot as the dividend?

the dividend amount is reduced via the corp tax on profits otherwise the divi could be bigger.

[jannybruck]

First time in.. maybe eight months or something? that I didn't wear a mask on the train today. Primarily because I forgot it, but it felt extremely strange and actually sort of liberating.

The mask-to-not-mask ratio seems to be pretty split by age divide here where I am now. Older people clearly still being cautious while the vast majority of younger people not bothering.

[mcshed]

8 minutes ago, Neil said:

the dividend amount is reduced via the corp tax on profits otherwise the divi could be bigger.

If you were doing that you'd need to at least add the employer contribution to national insurance onto the labour side of the equation as without that the wages would be higher.

[mcshed]

34 minutes ago, lost said:

Barnabus P Moneybags income will be in the higher rate we are talking about the basic rate which very few people will hit the sweet spot to have say normal income at personal allowance level and then dividends in that band which is why its probably not worth the government decimating small businesses to target people at that level. Remember you get £20k a year share isa allowance which if used over a 40 year career allows you to hold £800k of dividend paying stock tax free. The moderately well off who hold stock won't be paying this tax they will use tax shelters.

And at the higher rate income tax is 40% and dividend tax is 32.5% and at the additional rate income tax is 45% and dividend tax is 38.1% so all the way up and down the system Moneybags' money is earning money at a lower tax rate than yours or my labour is earning money. That is always going to lead to a concentration of wealth. On top of this when he sells any of these assets Capital Gains Tax is only 20% for higher and additional rate tax payers. Yes he might go further and shelter his income from tax in other ways but if we take Barnabus to be a decent sort of bloke he is still paying way less tax on his unearned income than you and I are on our earned income and this disparity is problematic.

[lost]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

 he is still paying way less tax on his unearned income than you and I are on our earned income and this disparity is problematic.

As I said it also needs to be fair on people who own their own company. You could find that by chasing that tax your losing wealth from other parts of the economy as those companies are taxed out of existence and it results in a net loss which would be pointless.

Looking at the EU most western countries seem to do something similar i.e Ireland has the lowest corp tax but the highest dividend tax, countries with higher corp tax have lower dividend tax. The tiger economies in the east who are prioritising growth have both low corporation and dividend:

Edited February 11, 2022 by lost