zahidf Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 in the 100k NHS beds in the country, around 7000 are taken up by Covid patients. I think the NHS bods are trying to change society to make their job easier. Sod that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: If you turn up at A&E with a heart attack and you can't be seen - that is what a collapsed health care system is. Having your in growing toe nail operation delayed is not a collapsed health care system. While that didn't happen, what did happen was people who had heart attacks putting off or not going to A&E in the first place because of COVID. 50% fewer people went in with heart attack symptoms than normal during the first wave. https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases/worse-outcomes-observed-after-heart-attacks-during-pandemic-compared-to-previous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efcfanwirral Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, zahidf said: in the 100k NHS beds in the country, around 7000 are taken up by Covid patients. I think the NHS bods are trying to change society to make their job easier. Sod that Thats the problem with everyone focusing on just covid - its everything added up but its the easy option to blame covid...til we look at the stats. But most people offline don't, so think masks will fix everything. Press conferences threatening freedoms and front pages about covid restrictions seem to back that up for people. Deflection from the real issues, which means it'll take longer to get them sorted for future years Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: If we simply told GPs to do their fucking job we would take the pressure of the NHS. But they continue to operate call centres. How exactly when phone appointments are more efficient than in person ones will reverting to in person GPs suddenly fix all this? I get that you find an in person consultation more reassuring and prefer them particularly where your kids are concerned. There is a debate to be had about the quality of service some practices are giving over the phone but the idea that more in person appointments would help fix the NHS workload is for the birds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: If we simply told GPs to do their fucking job we would take the pressure of the NHS. But they continue to operate call centres. Okay, yeah you're going to need to explain that one. We can argue the merits of phone versus face-to-face appointments all day, but the point of phone appointments (and the resulting reduction in the quality of care) has always been there in part to make things more efficient, not less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lost Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 10 minutes ago, DeanoL said: I don't even know what "collapsing" looks like? Probably what we saw in India, people on stretchers in the hospital car park receiving oxygen and unable to get in. India has been quiet lately though apparently now when you go to get tested if its positive they send you home to isolate with a little bag containing vitamin D, Zinc and ivermectin. They had a peak in September last year before the massive peak in May and seemingly have avoided September this year which is interesting as they are only at 30% vaccinated about the same as Russia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 My Mum who is 90 had her booster vaccine appointment cancelled twice because of supply issues. She ended up just going to a vaccine centre place and asking about it and got her booster then. So, seems to be a few technical issues ballsing things up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, Barry Fish said: People aren't even getting these telephone appointments. I think you have your head in the sand on the realities. Its not like people aren't speaking out about it. If they see you in person it takes longer and then even more people don't get appointments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st dan Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Okay, yeah you're going to need to explain that one. We can argue the merits of phone versus face-to-face appointments all day, but the point of phone appointments (and the resulting reduction in the quality of care) has always been there in part to make things more efficient, not less. In many situations, they are pretty useless though to be fair. I recently had an ear infection, had a telephone appointment with my GP who flat out refused to give me antibiotics and told me to take drops etc. The pain became unbearable a few days later so I was forced to go to the (very busy) walk in centre, where I was assessed properly (looked down ear etc) and I was given a course of antibiotics which cleared it up in 3 days. The nurse I saw at the walk in was pretty critical of the whole system at the minute, as that really is the job of a GP. Edited October 21, 2021 by st dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 Just now, lost said: Probably what we saw in India, people on stretchers in the hospital car park receiving oxygen and unable to get in. in parts of Italy in March 20 too, and also in Brazil where they were running out of oxygen as well as beds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: What IS happening right now is people are trying to get appointments at their GPs - failing to do so - and then turning up at A&E. That IS happening. So let's make GPs less efficient by returning to all in person appointments? How does that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 2 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: Your just saying stuff... The reality is people are being misdiagnosed remotely and its taking more time. Again - listen.... People are speaking out about it and being ignored by the likes of you. I've heard people complain about getting appointments and the lack of attention and the fact you only get proper care when you are referred to a specialist for years. You can't on the one hand complain that all this NHS in crisis stuff is nothing new whilst simultaneously thinking all the GP issues are caused by remote appointments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcshed Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 6 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: Your just saying stuff... Also this is ridiculous, what are you doing in reply flapping your gills? We are all just saying stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 8 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: People aren't even getting these telephone appointments. I think you have your head in the sand on the realities. Its not like people aren't speaking out about it. Yeah you're right. It's fucked. As we've been saying. People can't even get telephone appointments in some areas*. But that doesn't improve if you cut the amount of people GPs can consult in a given day with by 30% by going back to face-to-face appointments. Does the quality of care drop? Yes. But like you said: Quote Its hand to mouth organisation. Its not one designed to have any more capacity than it needs. It means during peaks of pressure we cancel elective surgery and so on and move around resources and only take in priority patients and queue the rest in ambulances or at home. "Moving around resources" includes moving to telephone appointments for GPs: you drop the standard of care to increase capacity of care. You acknowledge that's how the NHS should work, but when they do it in a way you don't like, or that affects you, you get angry about it. (*this is fucked bit, as if you're going to do mostly telephone consults, you may as well centralise it and spread the load - but then that was happening for first line stuff with NHS Direct until we cut it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWillis2 Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 24 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Okay, yeah you're going to need to explain that one. We can argue the merits of phone versus face-to-face appointments all day, but the point of phone appointments (and the resulting reduction in the quality of care) has always been there in part to make things more efficient, not less. I struggle to even get a telephone appointment at the moment. We just get fobbed off and told to try the walk in centre or phone 111. Have you ever tried to sit in a walk in centre waiting area for hours with a sick 1 year old? Edited October 21, 2021 by BobWillis2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraybentos1 Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 28 minutes ago, mcshed said: So let's make GPs less efficient by returning to all in person appointments? How does that help? Dunno what ur GP is like but I phoned up for a phone appointment and was told I couldn’t get one for over 3 weeks. It can’t get less efficient than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
efcfanwirral Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, mcshed said: How exactly when phone appointments are more efficient than in person ones will reverting to in person GPs suddenly fix all this? I get that you find an in person consultation more reassuring and prefer them particularly where your kids are concerned. There is a debate to be had about the quality of service some practices are giving over the phone but the idea that more in person appointments would help fix the NHS workload is for the birds. 54 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Okay, yeah you're going to need to explain that one. We can argue the merits of phone versus face-to-face appointments all day, but the point of phone appointments (and the resulting reduction in the quality of care) has always been there in part to make things more efficient, not less. 53 minutes ago, Barry Fish said: Of course it won't "fix" it no matter how you feel on the issue. Not going to discuss the above - you are welcome to your view point - I have mine. What IS happening right now is people are trying to get appointments at their GPs - failing to do so - and then turning up at A&E. That IS happening. Whatever you think is really going on at GP practices the number of people turning up at A&E due to lack of GP access is a reality. 50 minutes ago, st dan said: In many situations, they are pretty useless though to be fair. I recently had an ear infection, had a telephone appointment with my GP who flat out refused to give me antibiotics and told me to take drops etc. The pain became unbearable a few days later so I was forced to go to the (very busy) walk in centre, where I was assessed properly (looked down ear etc) and I was given a course of antibiotics which cleared it up in 3 days. The nurse I saw at the walk in was pretty critical of the whole system at the minute, as that really is the job of a GP. I've got a ridiculous story around this: Back in July the girlfriend has what looks like an infected insect bite on her back. It was on the site of a previous bite that had scarred over, but had been checked by the doctors a couple of years back. So it wasn't just a normal bite then into infection. It got worse so she called and had to send photos. The photos were the best I could do, but shit and didn't represent what it looked like at all. The words infected bite were used, misrepresentative pics were sent so antibiotics were given and she was told to go and enjoy Latitude fest. It kept getting worse despite these antibiotics, so leaving latitude early after it burst, two more doc phone appointments and 2 a and e trips followed because of concerns of worsening infection. Final place tells her it's an abscess, that if it'd burst inwardly she'd have been in trouble (it burst outwardly) and gave her very strong antibiotics as the originals weren't ever going to touch it. It was drained there and fixed within days If the doc had seen her, it would've been identified as an abscess, she'd have got the antibiotics she needed, less work for the NHS overall, less stress, less risk of sepsis of course. Apparently the final diagnosis came from touching it, not just looking at it. We try not to think how bad it could've gone and while we took the wrong decision to go to a festival, it was cleared twice by doctors. Problem is now we don't trust them over the phone for stuff like this Edited October 21, 2021 by efcfanwirral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 25 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said: Dunno what ur GP is like but I phoned up for a phone appointment and was told I couldn’t get one for over 3 weeks. It can’t get less efficient than that. Err, yeah it can. 6 weeks? 12 weeks? Just because things are really bad doesn't mean they can't get worse. But when people are saying the NHS is overwhelmed, this is all what they mean. I'm impressed by the cognitive dissonance on here from people that are saying we definitely don't need any restrictions and it'll all be fine and the NHS will cope, then they complain when they can't get a doctor's appointment. People saying the NHS just needs to prioritise and it'll be fine, then get confused when the NHS ceases to prioritise them or their kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahidf Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 Wouldn't want to miss this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahidf Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Err, yeah it can. 6 weeks? 12 weeks? Just because things are really bad doesn't mean they can't get worse. But when people are saying the NHS is overwhelmed, this is all what they mean. I'm impressed by the cognitive dissonance on here from people that are saying we definitely don't need any restrictions and it'll all be fine and the NHS will cope, then they complain when they can't get a doctor's appointment. People saying the NHS just needs to prioritise and it'll be fine, then get confused when the NHS ceases to prioritise them or their kids. Oh I'm consistent. I don't want restrictions to be used as a way for the NHS to get waiting lists down. If it means a rougher winter, then we have a rough winter. But it's not a wartime emergency situation, and if there are issues with waiting time, the govt need to get their finger out and sort it out. Edited October 21, 2021 by zahidf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 12 minutes ago, efcfanwirral said: I've got a ridiculous story around this: Back in July the girlfriend has what looks like an infected insect bite on her back. It was on the site of a previous bite that had scarred over, but had been checked by the doctors a couple of years back. So it wasn't just a normal bite then into infection. It got worse so she called and had to send photos. The photos were the best I could do, but shit and didn't represent what it looked like at all. The words infected bite were used, misrepresentative pics were sent so antibiotics were given and she was told to go and enjoy Latitude fest. It kept getting worse despite these antibiotics, so leaving latitude early after it burst, two more doc phone appointments and 2 a and e trips followed because of concerns of worsening infection. Final place tells her it's an abscess, that if it'd burst inwardly she'd have been in trouble (it burst outwardly) and gave her very strong antibiotics as the originals weren't ever going to touch it. It was drained there and fixed within days If the doc had seen her, it would've been identified as an abscess, she'd have got the antibiotics she needed, less work for the NHS overall, less stress, less risk of sepsis of course. Apparently the final diagnosis came from touching it, not just looking at it. We try not to think how bad it could've gone and while we took the wrong decision to go to a festival, it was cleared twice by doctors. Problem is now we don't trust them over the phone for stuff like this That's horrible mate - glad it worked out okay. There are definitely cases where the telephone consult thing doesn't work and fails patients, leading them needing to use more NHS resource than they would have otherwise. This definitely happens, and it's important to say that's one of the consequences of reducing quality of care in this way. But overall, it's more efficient, because the savings outweigh the costs. Which is horrible when the "cost" is you or someone close to you but it's what we've been doing this entire pandemic in order to allow the NHS to cope (and what many here were advocating). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWillis2 Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Err, yeah it can. 6 weeks? 12 weeks? Just because things are really bad doesn't mean they can't get worse. But when people are saying the NHS is overwhelmed, this is all what they mean. I'm impressed by the cognitive dissonance on here from people that are saying we definitely don't need any restrictions and it'll all be fine and the NHS will cope, then they complain when they can't get a doctor's appointment. People saying the NHS just needs to prioritise and it'll be fine, then get confused when the NHS ceases to prioritise them or their kids. Can you not see the knock on effect that GP’s playing hide and seek is causing? Doctors surgery tells x people to go to the walk in centre, walk in centre gets busy so people try A&E instead, A&E gets busy taking up precious time, recourses and beds, ambulances get stuck outside hospitals waiting for these resources and beds to come free, people at home are now waiting far too long for ambulances to arrive, their urgent problem gets far worse and their subsequent hospital stay increases as a result causing an even bigger bed shortage. EDIT: and as the story above shows, people are not getting the correct diagnoses over the phone and their problems worsen leading to potentially taking up hospital bed space unnecessarily. Edited October 21, 2021 by BobWillis2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeanoL Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 3 minutes ago, zahidf said: Oh I'm consistent. I don't want restrictions to be used as a way for the NHS to get waiting lists down. If it means a rougher winter, then we have a rough winter. But it's not a wartime emergency situation, and if there are issues with waiting time, the govt need to get their finger out and sort it out. It's 9 years to train new GPs. So we're in for a fair few hard winters. There's no easy way to sort a resource problem like this. Just now, BobWillis2 said: Can you not see the knock on effect that GP’s playing hide and seek is causing? Doctors surgery tells x people to go to the walk in centre, walk in centre gets busy so people try A&E instead, A&E gets busy taking up precious time, recourses and beds, ambulances get stuck outside hospitals waiting for these resources and beds to come free, people at home are now waiting far too long for ambulances to arrive, their urgent problem gets far worse and their subsequent hospital stay increases as a result causing an even bigger bed shortage. GPs are not "playing hide a seek" - they're seeing as many people as they can. It's just there's more people and fewer GPs. Do you really thing GPs have just suddenly stopped giving a fuck and are enjoying some lazy days? Look at the problem the other way: some GPs always did this - they refer people to walk-in centres, they tell you to go to A&E and A&E sorts you out. But they can't now because hospitals are busy with all the extra COVID patients. The system falls over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuzzy Afro Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 33 minutes ago, DeanoL said: While that didn't happen, what did happen was people who had heart attacks putting off or not going to A&E in the first place because of COVID. 50% fewer people went in with heart attack symptoms than normal during the first wave. https://www.escardio.org/The-ESC/Press-Office/Press-releases/worse-outcomes-observed-after-heart-attacks-during-pandemic-compared-to-previous I don’t know what to say to someone who doesn’t bother getting their heart attack seen to out of dear of catching a pretty much bog standard respiratory virus. Definition of a Darwin Award and a complete inability to assess risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraybentos1 Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 26 minutes ago, DeanoL said: Err, yeah it can. 6 weeks? 12 weeks? Just because things are really bad doesn't mean they can't get worse. But when people are saying the NHS is overwhelmed, this is all what they mean. I'm impressed by the cognitive dissonance on here from people that are saying we definitely don't need any restrictions and it'll all be fine and the NHS will cope, then they complain when they can't get a doctor's appointment. People saying the NHS just needs to prioritise and it'll be fine, then get confused when the NHS ceases to prioritise them or their kids. Might as well just not exist at that point is it was months to get a phone appointment. every year we are told the nhs is about to collapse. Not accepting restrictions every winter and thankfully it seems the gov isn’t either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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