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Football 2021/2022


jyoung
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11 hours ago, balthazarstarbuck said:

Oh I’m not saying this year- fully aware we’re tied to the mast now (though should hopefully get abused less as winter eases). They’re gonna have to be far more prescriptive next year though. 

Yeah if there was an unprecedented injury crisis you'd have to put out any team you could. We did the other week before our covid issues against Chelsea - loads of youngsters. But it sounds like teams are basing it on recognised first team players which really shouldn't be the case 

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1 hour ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Does anyone take the piss and break into a jog?

guy was carded today for running,

mostly were old gits with walking problems so it doesn't get too lively.

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On 1/18/2022 at 9:29 AM, efcfanwirral said:

Yeah if there was an unprecedented injury crisis you'd have to put out any team you could. We did the other week before our covid issues against Chelsea - loads of youngsters. But it sounds like teams are basing it on recognised first team players which really shouldn't be the case 

Years ago I remember a spell when Newcastle had something like 13 first team players injured but we ended up limping on with wingers as defenders and strikers losing all the games.

I think there's a balancing act. There are cases when injuries exacerbate covid issues, or indeed players could be theoretically more susceptible to injury immediately after getting covid, so I get how they can combine to put teams out of action. However, there's a degree. The line in the sand is going to be fuzzy when dealing with this, but it has to be definitive. I am genuinely surprised the PL were OK with Arsenal's request to postpone the Spurs game last weekend as I thought they had enough available to go along with it. I didn't think they had problems any worse than Leeds, who have been happy just to carry on.

It's a contrast in many ways, given the Bundesliga and La Liga have called off no games despite some clubs have covid outbreaks and losing players long-term due to covid issues (Bayern Munich have lost a few players because covid created further health issues) while Serie A has had to reform its rules after a few ridiculous moments. I guess its a balancing act as some teams will genuinely have to call games off and some will just be seen as opportunists, fairly or otherwise.

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7 hours ago, Neil said:

looks limke the govt is going an extra mile to save derby.

I don't think it would be a good look for football in general if a club as big as Derby County is allowed to fold tbf. The demise of Bury and near-collapse of Bolton Wanderers were bad enough. I get that Derby overspent in their ambition to reach the Premier League, but liquidation seems like far too much of an extreme potential penalty.

As for one of the other things relating to this case, I get why Wycombe are unhappy and prepared to rope in lawyers given Derby stayed up at their expense by one point when any deduction applied last season would've sent Derby County down. But I don't get what Middlesbrough are getting involved with their own legal action for, especially as its just on missing out on the play-offs.

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Why should a club be expected to be bailed out due to their own financial failures?
 

There are procedures in place and clubs can survive multiple administrations. 
 

Why are Derby so special that they get a rescue when other clubs who haven’t committed the same illegal financial deals don’t get it. 
 

They overspent and gambled foolishly and then committed fraud to try and recoup their losses. 
 

Suppose that’s perfectly acceptable in the eyes of a Tory though.
 

Personally I say let Derby take their punishment. If they have the will and the support then they will make a comeback, other clubs have done so. 

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There's penalties and penalties imo. I'm not pretending Derby overstepped the mark of what was and wasn't allowed in the Mel Morris days, and they have been handed legal penalties for it in the form of fines and having to redo their accounts as well as the 21 point penalty and multiple transfer embargoes, but liquidation feels like a properly extreme penalty and kinda too far.

It's a weird situation with the Championship in general anyway. That division felt financially unsustainable even before covid and the major financial loss that came with having to play a year with no fans in stadiums. Reading having a wages-to-turnover ratio over 200% in the season covid interrupted was just ridiculous, but even clubs that look to have been less expensively run seem to be running at whopping losses.

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12 hours ago, charlierc said:

There's penalties and penalties imo. I'm not pretending Derby overstepped the mark of what was and wasn't allowed in the Mel Morris days, and they have been handed legal penalties for it in the form of fines and having to redo their accounts as well as the 21 point penalty and multiple transfer embargoes, but liquidation feels like a properly extreme penalty and kinda too far.

It's a weird situation with the Championship in general anyway. That division felt financially unsustainable even before covid and the major financial loss that came with having to play a year with no fans in stadiums. Reading having a wages-to-turnover ratio over 200% in the season covid interrupted was just ridiculous, but even clubs that look to have been less expensively run seem to be running at whopping losses.

Without the threat of liquidation what is the real threat, for most they get relegated and either go straight back up or stabilise in the league below. On that basis financial gambles may be considered worth the risk. Also if a club liquidates it doesn't (generally) disappear, it just starts from scratch. A team like Derby would fly up the pyramid.

 

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Jonjo Shelvey is a beautiful bald man!

 

Shambles at Elland Road though getting in, we missed 20 mins of the match because the turnstiles weren't working and the stewards took forever to make a decision on opening the exits and checking tickets there instead.

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On 1/19/2022 at 7:57 PM, squirrelarmy said:

Why should a club be expected to be bailed out due to their own financial failures?
 

There are procedures in place and clubs can survive multiple administrations. 
 

Why are Derby so special that they get a rescue when other clubs who haven’t committed the same illegal financial deals don’t get it. 
 

They overspent and gambled foolishly and then committed fraud to try and recoup their losses. 
 

Suppose that’s perfectly acceptable in the eyes of a Tory though.
 

Personally I say let Derby take their punishment. If they have the will and the support then they will make a comeback, other clubs have done so. 

 

15 hours ago, squirrelarmy said:

United vs United 

Crazy to think if it wasn't for leeds cheating, you would of been debating with easty.

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On 1/22/2022 at 9:50 AM, pink_triangle said:

Without the threat of liquidation what is the real threat, for most they get relegated and either go straight back up or stabilise in the league below. On that basis financial gambles may be considered worth the risk. Also if a club liquidates it doesn't (generally) disappear, it just starts from scratch. A team like Derby would fly up the pyramid.

 

I guess the over-arching issues to Derby, or indeed Reading and their own problems that have come from spending 200% of turnover on player wages, or indeed most of the Championship, is how do you stop it being like such a casino. Such is the ludicrously high prize money gap between the PL and Championship, the effective financial arms race to get there when 2/3rds of the division sees itself as a Premier League team in waiting and the distortion that is parachute payments for the relegated, you're going to get a situation where teams are going to throw money at promotion. FFP clearly hasn't worked as well as intended, but how do you control such a thing when clubs are willing to risk things that way?

Even then, I thought after all the outpouring of anger after Bury were allowed to collapse in September 2019 and strong criticism of the EFL's handling of that shitshow that more might be done to stop it happening again. Yet not even 3 years later, here we are again with an even bigger example. I'm aware an AFC Derby would have a lot of goodwill from County fans who would want to help a new club rise quickly like AFC Wimbledon did, and I'm aware Derby County's previous owners pushed things too far, but something still doesn't seem right that it might come to it imo.

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16 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Shambles at Elland Road though getting in, we missed 20 mins of the match because the turnstiles weren't working and the stewards took forever to make a decision on opening the exits and checking tickets there instead.

Technological innovation working wonders again then. But sounds like it was worth it in the end.

Least we can now lose the stat that Newcastle have won as many games against PL teams this season as Cambridge.

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2 hours ago, charlierc said:

I guess the over-arching issues to Derby, or indeed Reading and their own problems that have come from spending 200% of turnover on player wages, or indeed most of the Championship, is how do you stop it being like such a casino. Such is the ludicrously high prize money gap between the PL and Championship, the effective financial arms race to get there when 2/3rds of the division sees itself as a Premier League team in waiting and the distortion that is parachute payments for the relegated, you're going to get a situation where teams are going to throw money at promotion. FFP clearly hasn't worked as well as intended, but how do you control such a thing when clubs are willing to risk things that way?

Even then, I thought after all the outpouring of anger after Bury were allowed to collapse in September 2019 and strong criticism of the EFL's handling of that shitshow that more might be done to stop it happening again. Yet not even 3 years later, here we are again with an even bigger example. I'm aware an AFC Derby would have a lot of goodwill from County fans who would want to help a new club rise quickly like AFC Wimbledon did, and I'm aware Derby County's previous owners pushed things too far, but something still doesn't seem right that it might come to it imo.

FFP has worked as it's intended, it's just most never realised it's true intention which was to protect those at the top. My view is that a Dave Whelan type should be allowed to take over a club and push it above its natural level. While I get the sympathy for Derby fans, most of them would have had no issue with the gamble, if the gamble had worked.

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4 hours ago, charlierc said:

Technological innovation working wonders again then. But sounds like it was worth it in the end.

Least we can now lose the stat that Newcastle have won as many games against PL teams this season as Cambridge.

It was shocking mate but as you say, worth it in the end.

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On 1/23/2022 at 2:20 PM, pink_triangle said:

FFP has worked as it's intended, it's just most never realised it's true intention which was to protect those at the top. My view is that a Dave Whelan type should be allowed to take over a club and push it above its natural level. While I get the sympathy for Derby fans, most of them would have had no issue with the gamble, if the gamble had worked.

The strange thing is that to some extent, Mel Morris might have been considered a Dave Whelan like figure had it worked. Morris is somebody who was born in the area, made millions in the technology sector and then invested it in his boyhood club. Had they managed a successful promotion in 2014-19, it would've been seen as a great success story but instead the money ran out.

It's also curious history to some degree given they lost that first play-off final to a QPR team that broke FFP that season, with league winners Leicester also later getting a fine for breaking FFP rules on their way.

I'm not sure what is an easy way to make it less of a gambler's league, mind. It's not like it's that easy to just raise TV/prize money for the EFL given it's not exactly gonna be simple to raise the income like it was with the top teams.

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2 hours ago, WS_Jack_III said:

Claudio Ranieri sacked apparently, seen reports Bruce is set to take over, so that's one team relegated 😂

Yeah he's gone. I'm not sure why Watford sacked Xisco Munoz tbh given they didn't look too bad under him in the first few weeks of the season.

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12 hours ago, charlierc said:

The strange thing is that to some extent, Mel Morris might have been considered a Dave Whelan like figure had it worked. Morris is somebody who was born in the area, made millions in the technology sector and then invested it in his boyhood club. Had they managed a successful promotion in 2014-19, it would've been seen as a great success story but instead the money ran out.

It's also curious history to some degree given they lost that first play-off final to a QPR team that broke FFP that season, with league winners Leicester also later getting a fine for breaking FFP rules on their way.

I'm not sure what is an easy way to make it less of a gambler's league, mind. It's not like it's that easy to just raise TV/prize money for the EFL given it's not exactly gonna be simple to raise the income like it was with the top teams.

At the end of the day fans want more spending and don't care where it has come from. Fans are happy when the gambles pay off. Wrexham paid 300k for a forward from 2 leagues above yesterday, not a single complaint from fans.

 

 

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On 1/25/2022 at 8:26 AM, pink_triangle said:

At the end of the day fans want more spending and don't care where it has come from. Fans are happy when the gambles pay off. Wrexham paid 300k for a forward from 2 leagues above yesterday, not a single complaint from fans.

 

 

Well I can agree on that. I'm aware a lot of Newcastle fans were OK wrestling with the ethical dilemma that comes with our new owners purely because they're prepared to spend cash in a way Ashley very much wasn't.

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On 1/26/2022 at 12:18 PM, WS_Jack_III said:

Bruno Guimaraes signing for Newcastle. I'll be honest, don't know much about him. Any good?

Good on Football Manager apparently. Then again so was Henri Saivet and he ended up in our reserves.

I do gather however that he has been excellent for Lyon this season.

Edited by charlierc
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