Camping at Worthy Farm

[gooner1990]

16 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

How did you find it? I can't really see a downside if the tech works well.

I think the main problem was the tech not the process.

It was 6 years ago so I assume things will have improved now but back then you had to go to a machine and hold your RFID wristband to it, load cash notes or pay by card to add to your account then hold your wristband to a handheld machine when you bought drinks or food etc.

The silly thing was as the weekend went on that in the main arena there were massive queues for the machines to top up the wristbands then you had to queue again to buy your drink.  The weather went really shite from the Friday onwards and I think at one point it all failed, and there was no plan B as there wasn't any provision to use cash as a back up on the bars. Also really, really drunk metallers trying to use the top up machines in the dark when they just want a beer and the queues are huge and the tech is failing isn't a good mix, especially when they start missing their fave bands because of it.....

Download then took ages to refund any unspent money after the festival had ended.

I'm sure now some sort of app would work just as well to top up onto and either load that into a wristband or use direct from the app via your phone?

[Simsy]

36 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

How did you find it? I can't really see a downside if the tech works well.

I went to Sziget a few years ago, and they had payment wristbands (but also took contactless cards & Apple pay).

The problem there was they charged a fee every time you topped up, so you were encouraged to just put a load on at once, then it was really awkward to get it back afterwards. You had to go to a refund stall that was only open at certain times, and could only get back multiples of some round number of Forints. It seemed to be a way to scam some extra cash off people. I just used a contactless card instead.

As long as they're not trying to screw you over (free beer money sounds good!), the tech seemed to work fine. Didn't see anyone having any problems using it.

[gooner1990]

When I worked on the Stonebridge bar in 2019 the only real issues from people using contactless was not enough PDQ machines to go around and people getting grumpy when their transaction didn't go through as quick as it would do normally.

[Skelts]

3 minutes ago, gooner1990 said:

When I worked on the Stonebridge bar in 2019 the only real issues from people using contactless was not enough PDQ machines to go around and people getting grumpy when their transaction didn't go through as quick as it would do normally.

Anyone getting grumpy with bar staff at Glastonbury should be asked to leave the festival immediately 

[gooner1990]

12 minutes ago, Skelts said:

Anyone getting grumpy with bar staff at Glastonbury should be asked to leave the festival immediately 

Yes...tbh they weren't that bad just getting a bit irritated especially when they were chewing their faces off on gear and wanted to go back to partying rather than making small talk with me whilst we waited for a PDQ machine.

The main issue I found was ice....we were told not to give it away for free, people expected it to be free as its 'just frozen water mate' - until I pointed out to a few of them that if they went to Tesco for a bag of ice they would be expected to pay for it. As it was really hot that year (2019) it was a big big issue throughout the whole weekend.

One girl had a go at me because it was £2.50 for a small coke that had been poured from a big bottle that probably only cost £1 wholesale.  I agreed that it was a rip off but she was telling the wrong person, she gobbed off something at me in some London slang and walked off.

[stuie]

1 hour ago, gooner1990 said:

I think the main problem was the tech not the process.

It was 6 years ago so I assume things will have improved now but back then you had to go to a machine and hold your RFID wristband to it, load cash notes or pay by card to add to your account then hold your wristband to a handheld machine when you bought drinks or food etc.

The silly thing was as the weekend went on that in the main arena there were massive queues for the machines to top up the wristbands then you had to queue again to buy your drink.  The weather went really shite from the Friday onwards and I think at one point it all failed, and there was no plan B as there wasn't any provision to use cash as a back up on the bars. Also really, really drunk metallers trying to use the top up machines in the dark when they just want a beer and the queues are huge and the tech is failing isn't a good mix, especially when they start missing their fave bands because of it.....

Download then took ages to refund any unspent money after the festival had ended.

I'm sure now some sort of app would work just as well to top up onto and either load that into a wristband or use direct from the app via your phone?

I think contactless payments are so widely used now it renders this system obsolete before its even come of age.  What’s the point in people adding funds to a payment device when they already have one in their pocket? 

[gooner1990]

14 minutes ago, stuie said:

I think contactless payments are so widely used now it renders this system obsolete before its even come of age.  What’s the point in people adding funds to a payment device when they already have one in their pocket? 

I agree, I thought it was overly complicated for not much difference.  I think the main point was to avoid cash sales but in doing that they also got rid of contactless/card payments which made the thing worse.

Maybe people loading up x amount means the festival gets more money as they inevitably then spend even more than they would do otherwise?

Personally, I still take some cash to festivals and I have my card there for back up....that may well change as the years go on!

[incident]

2 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

How did you find it? I can't really see a downside if the tech works well.

A very major downside of wristband based wallet systems is that you've effectively got the festival or a 3rd party company acting as a bank except often without any of the protections a bank offfers - holding all the customer deposits, and then releasing the payments to the traders after the event.

There's been at least one example, Galres Parklands Festival, of a previously respected festival going into administration and leaving traders entirely out of pocket and customers chasing refunds.

[Zoo Music Girl]

4 hours ago, watsonjm said:

They did this at IOW in 2012 I think.  Worked well on site but not enough stalls/bars were set up to accept it.  If I remember correctly there were problems getting money back after the festival which caused some issues.

So according to the Camp Kin organisers it will be the only way to pay at any of the stalls or bars so hopefully that won't be an issue. Hopefully they won't have the same issues with refunds!

[Zoo Music Girl]

8 hours ago, gooner1990 said:

I think the main problem was the tech not the process.

It was 6 years ago so I assume things will have improved now but back then you had to go to a machine and hold your RFID wristband to it, load cash notes or pay by card to add to your account then hold your wristband to a handheld machine when you bought drinks or food etc.

The silly thing was as the weekend went on that in the main arena there were massive queues for the machines to top up the wristbands then you had to queue again to buy your drink.  The weather went really shite from the Friday onwards and I think at one point it all failed, and there was no plan B as there wasn't any provision to use cash as a back up on the bars. Also really, really drunk metallers trying to use the top up machines in the dark when they just want a beer and the queues are huge and the tech is failing isn't a good mix, especially when they start missing their fave bands because of it.....

Download then took ages to refund any unspent money after the festival had ended.

I'm sure now some sort of app would work just as well to top up onto and either load that into a wristband or use direct from the app via your phone?

That sounds like a nightmare! Hope things have improved.

I wouldn't be keen on the phone option simply because my phone is pretty old and doesn't keep its charge very well. I wouldn't want to rely on it to be able to buy a drink! 

[Zoo Music Girl]

7 hours ago, Simsy said:

I went to Sziget a few years ago, and they had payment wristbands (but also took contactless cards & Apple pay).

The problem there was they charged a fee every time you topped up, so you were encouraged to just put a load on at once, then it was really awkward to get it back afterwards. You had to go to a refund stall that was only open at certain times, and could only get back multiples of some round number of Forints. It seemed to be a way to scam some extra cash off people. I just used a contactless card instead.

As long as they're not trying to screw you over (free beer money sounds good!), the tech seemed to work fine. Didn't see anyone having any problems using it.

Cheers! That does sound a bit like a way to scam money off people to be fair.

[gooner1990]

3 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

That sounds like a nightmare! Hope things have improved.

I wouldn't be keen on the phone option simply because my phone is pretty old and doesn't keep its charge very well. I wouldn't want to rely on it to be able to buy a drink! 

This is why I still take cash to festivals even though normally I use my card 95% of the time at home. 

[Zoo Music Girl]

24 minutes ago, gooner1990 said:

This is why I still take cash to festivals even though normally I use my card 95% of the time at home. 

I usually take half and half although I always worry about losing cash so would prefer not to really. I always used to at Glasto because not everyone took card but I'd happily go card all the way. At least you can cancel it if it gets nicked.

[gooner1990]

31 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

I usually take half and half although I always worry about losing cash so would prefer not to really. I always used to at Glasto because not everyone took card but I'd happily go card all the way. At least you can cancel it if it gets nicked.

I’ve never lost any cash in 20+ years of festivalling. 
 

and a note usually comes in handy late at night doesn’t it 🤣

[Zoo Music Girl]

12 hours ago, gooner1990 said:

I’ve never lost any cash in 20+ years of festivalling. 
 

and a note usually comes in handy late at night doesn’t it 🤣

You know what, neither have I! A mate has had her purse nicked from her tent while sleeping though so always makes me a bit paranoid. Have used the lockups in recent years to dole it out bit by bit but would much prefer to just use my card for everything.

When I first started going to Glasto I was pretty skint so having cash helped me keep a close tab on everything I spent too. That was my allocate spending money for the weekend and nothing more.

We always used to bring little straws for that other purpose! Very organised. Those days are pretty well behind me now, though.

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

You know what, neither have I! A mate has had her purse nicked from her tent while sleeping though so always makes me a bit paranoid. Have used the lockups in recent years to dole it out bit by bit but would much prefer to just use my card for everything.

When I first started going to Glasto I was pretty skint so having cash helped me keep a close tab on everything I spent too. That was my allocate spending money for the weekend and nothing more.

We always used to bring little straws for that other purpose! Very organised. Those days are pretty well behind me now, though.

That’s the only benefit of cash now for me keeping a closer track on how much you’re spending. Saying that though I only pay with my phone when I go out now so hopefully at Glastonbury next year they’ll be more choice for Apple Pay etc it would surely make the process quicker?

[Zoo Music Girl]

47 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That’s the only benefit of cash now for me keeping a closer track on how much you’re spending. Saying that though I only pay with my phone when I go out now so hopefully at Glastonbury next year they’ll be more choice for Apple Pay etc it would surely make the process quicker?

Surely the issue with that is a strong enough internet connection. Pretty sure mine is still quite poor when it comes to Glasto.

I don't use phone payment things though as I'm too much of a Luddite! 

[Ozanne]

17 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Surely the issue with that is a strong enough internet connection. Pretty sure mine is still quite poor when it comes to Glasto.

I don't use phone payment things though as I'm too much of a Luddite! 

To be honest that doesn’t make much difference as you don’t need any type of internet connection, be it cell data or Wifi to use Apple Pay.

Apple Pay in stores uses the Near Field Communications chip to transfer the payment information to the store's terminal. There is no internet connection required.

[incident]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

To be honest that doesn’t make much difference as you don’t need any type of internet connection, be it cell data or Wifi to use Apple Pay.

Apple Pay in stores uses the Near Field Communications chip to transfer the payment information to the store's terminal. There is no internet connection required.

It's likely a minor thing for most people, but I'd mention that while Apple & Google Pay don't need an active Internet connection at the time of the transaction taking place, they will eventually stop working if they've made enough transactions in a row without being able to "phone home" - though I don't know what the thresholds are for that or whether they'd be high enough to go an entire 5 day festival without doing so. Not certain about Samsung Pay but I guess it'll work in a similar way because it'd be horrifically insecure if it didn't.

There is also an Internet connection needed on the retailers side as well of course, but that's for them to sort out - at Latitude the WiFi network provided to the traders for that purpose went down a few separate times meaning the "cashless" festival briefly reverted to cash.

[Ozanne]

5 minutes ago, incident said:

It's likely a minor thing for most people, but I'd mention that while Apple & Google Pay don't need an active Internet connection at the time of the transaction taking place, they will eventually stop working if they've made enough transactions in a row without being able to "phone home" - though I don't know what the thresholds are for that or whether they'd be high enough to go an entire 5 day festival without doing so. Not certain about Samsung Pay but I guess it'll work in a similar way because it'd be horrifically insecure if it didn't.

There is also an Internet connection needed on the retailers side as well of course, but that's for them to sort out - at Latitude the WiFi network provided to the traders for that purpose went down a few separate times meaning the "cashless" festival briefly reverted to cash.

I tried to have a look but I'm not sure that it would stop working if the phone couldn't connect to the internet after a while as the transaction would go through the merchants machine and register through their internet connection. For example I can use my Apple Watch without the phone being on me (no sim Watch). I could be wrong though!

[incident]

Just now, Ozanne said:

I tried to have a look but I'm not sure that it would stop working if the phone couldn't connect to the internet after a while as the transaction would go through the merchants machine and register through their internet connection. For example I can use my Apple Watch without the phone being on me (no sim Watch). I could be wrong though!

The Internet connection is (eventually) needed because each transaction utilises a unique security/authorisation token (instead of static card details) which the retailers POS terminal uses to verify the transaction. The Phone (and any other enabled device) have enough security tokens saved/cached locally to be able to handle a certain number (again, not sure what this is and it may well be different between Apple and Google) of transactions without going online to retrieve more. But they will eventually need to go online when they run out.

A hopefully not too techy overview of how the services work is here.

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, incident said:

The Internet connection is (eventually) needed because each transaction utilises a unique security/authorisation token (instead of static card details) which the retailers POS terminal uses to verify the transaction. The Phone (and any other enabled device) have enough security tokens saved/cached locally to be able to handle a certain number (again, not sure what this is and it may well be different between Apple and Google) of transactions without going online to retrieve more. But they will eventually need to go online when they run out.

A hopefully not too techy overview of how the services work is here.

Nice, cheers. I guess with 5G becoming more prominent that will only help with people being able to connect back to the internet to refresh their token.

[incident]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Nice, cheers. I guess with 5G becoming more prominent that will only help with people being able to connect back to the internet to refresh their token.

Sure - and obviously it's not something they'd consciously do anyway - the phone will do it in the background (and if appropriate, propagate to any other relevant devices like Watches etc) in that brief moment at say 7am when the person is fast asleep but their phone suddenly realises that data is working. So I think it's unlikely to be an issue at Festivals unless someone gets very unlucky with data coverage - I'd expect anyone that's tech inclined enough to use Apple / Google / Samsung Pay is also going to want to be online for numerous other reasons and so won't turn off data entirely.

[Ozanne]

5 minutes ago, incident said:

Sure - and obviously it's not something they'd consciously do anyway - the phone will do it in the background (and if appropriate, propagate to any other relevant devices like Watches etc) in that brief moment at say 7am when the person is fast asleep but their phone suddenly realises that data is working. So I think it's unlikely to be an issue at Festivals unless someone gets very unlucky with data coverage - I'd expect anyone that's tech inclined enough to use Apple / Google / Samsung Pay is also going to want to be online for numerous other reasons and so won't turn off data entirely.

The only reason I used to turn it off at Glastonbury was to preserve battery but these days I take a power bank that'll several charges so that's not an issue anymore.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Ozanne

[gooner1990]

10 hours ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

You know what, neither have I! A mate has had her purse nicked from her tent while sleeping though so always makes me a bit paranoid. Have used the lockups in recent years to dole it out bit by bit but would much prefer to just use my card for everything.

When I first started going to Glasto I was pretty skint so having cash helped me keep a close tab on everything I spent too. That was my allocate spending money for the weekend and nothing more.

We always used to bring little straws for that other purpose! Very organised. Those days are pretty well behind me now, though.

My mate had his wallet stolen when he was sleeping at our first major festival (Reading 1999) and I think that's it...a few mates have dropped phones/wallets/drugs over the years but I think most have been recovered at lost property afterwards.

I'm fairly solvent now, but when I went to Glastonbury 2009 and 2010 when I was on a fairly tight budget and just had the cash in my wallet for the weekend.  Knowing that you can't withdraw anymore really makes you think about what you're spending each day (I was on about a £20 a day budget) 

Well, I'm now nearly 40 and only indulge in such things very occassionally down at festivals these days. 🙂 

Edited July 31, 2021 by gooner1990