news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, lost said:

She's not the sharpest tool in the box is she? If my local pays their glass collectors £15 an hour the only place the cost can go is the beer I've just drunk out the glass. It'd be nice if Starmer had another term to clear the nutters out. 

https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/publications/the-case-for-a-15-hour-minimum-wage/

[lost]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Isn’t the solution to high inflation a recession?

Its demand destruction. It doesn't have to be in the form of a recession but can be and is most likely to be. If you look at the US during the 70's oil crisis they all went into the decade driving 8 litre chevys and came out driving Honda civics 

[lost]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/publications/the-case-for-a-15-hour-minimum-wage/

That just says workers "deserve it" I'll say again with a different profession if a pizza delivery driver can deliver a pizza every half an hour in traffic is on £15 an hour thats £7.50 on the cost of a pizza. Who is going to pay £15 for a £7 - £8 pizza? That job will cease to exist.

 

there is nowhere else the cost can go.

Edited June 9, 2022 by lost

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, lost said:

That just says workers "deserve it" I'll say again with a different profession if a pizza delivery driver can deliver a pizza every half an hour in traffic is on £15 an hour thats £7.50 on the cost of a pizza. Who is going to pay £15 for a £7 - £8 pizza? That job will cease to exist.

 

there is nowhere else the cost can go.

yeah, well this is the argument against any sort of minimum wage. As pointed out this would just return wages to where they were in early 2000s and avoid people falling into poverty. It's all detailed in this report I wrote earlier.

https://progressiveeconomyforum.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/PEF-15ph-report-DIGITAL.pdf

[steviewevie]

Thread from Faisal Islam about what Johnson has been saying about the wage spiral thing...

 

Edited June 9, 2022 by steviewevie

[Ozanne]

Eve been told that inflation is to do with global supply chain issues and not consumer over-confidence so in that case we should get pay rises in-line with inflation?

I wish they would just be honest and say they don’t want us to have anymore money. 

[mattiloy]

2 hours ago, lost said:

That just says workers "deserve it" I'll say again with a different profession if a pizza delivery driver can deliver a pizza every half an hour in traffic is on £15 an hour thats £7.50 on the cost of a pizza. Who is going to pay £15 for a £7 - £8 pizza? That job will cease to exist.

 

there is nowhere else the cost can go.

By these maths delivery drivers are currently paid £0 per hour?

If delivery drivers are currently paid minimum wage and you factor in your ungenerous 2 pizzas an hour, you’re talking a what, 2-3 quid uplift in the pizza price if you’re getting it delivered.

But you’re right, all things being equal, nobody will pay £11 for a pizza if there are equal quality £7-8 quid pizzas on the market no. But if all pizzas are £11? Plus the fact that many of customers also see a sudden uplift of around 30% in their disposable income as they are also on minimum wage, then it starts to sound acceptable doesn’t it?

In addition, a squeeze on Labour costs for businesses will make them invest more in automation. Short term unemployment is of course a possibility where automation does take place, but in the long run, its a good thing to shift the supply curve outwards, and where it can’t those jobs are just valued higher in society - it becomes to norm to pay a fair price for a haircut, taxi ride, pint. Yes the absolute minimum I can pay for a haircut is 25 quid, but I also earn more here, and I’m happy the barber can afford to buy 11 quid pizzas for his family too!

 

But who doesn’t get paid better in a more equal society? Those at the top. This from 2019 - the average multiplier between CEO and average worker salary in the UK is astronomical by comparison.

Edited June 9, 2022 by mattiloy

[lost]

51 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

By these maths delivery drivers are currently paid £0 per hour?

If delivery drivers are currently paid minimum wage and you factor in your ungenerous 2 pizzas an hour, you’re talking a what, 2-3 quid uplift in the pizza price if you’re getting it delivered.

 

Yep thats about right currently looking at uber eats charges.

 

Quote

But you’re right, all things being equal, nobody will pay £11 for a pizza if there are equal quality £7-8 quid pizzas on the market no. But if all pizzas are £11? Plus the fact that many of customers also see a sudden uplift of around 30% in their disposable income as they are also on minimum wage, then it starts to sound acceptable doesn’t it

Well its not just those on minimum wage is it. If I suddenly start paying £11 for a pizza and £12 for a pint of beer I'm also going to demand a payrise and the stuff I make will also get more expensive and once again the pizza guy won't be able to afford the stuff I make and so will want another pay rise. This was the original point about a wage rise/price rise cycle made by gary I think

Edited June 9, 2022 by lost

[steviewevie]

So how much is a garlic bread?

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Yep thats about right currently looking at uber eats charges.

 

Well its not just those on minimum wage is it. If I suddenly start paying £11 for a pizza and £12 for a pint of beer I'm also going to demand a payrise and the stuff I make will also get more expensive and once again the pizza guy won't be able to afford the stuff I make and so will want another pay rise. This was the original point about a wage rise/price rise cycle made by gary I think

I'm of the view that price wage spirals are something of a myth, a scaremongering tactic - the cost of producing something is only partly wages so there are diminishing returns to price rises with increases in wages. Runaway inflation is not a desireable thing but there is little evidence in the wild of it being caused by price wage spirals. It has always been the product of a dramatic increase in the money supply or supply side shocks and is a risk. Just now we have a little of both but is not yet reached a panic level.

I think that any increase in wages now would see a fairer distribution in the settlement of the current transient high inflation. Instead the right wing folks bring up the spectres of price wage spirals and runaway inflation to quell demands for more equitable allocation of the fruits of labour and capital in the face of higher living costs.

For one it sets a precedent that they don't like, and then their interests are served in bringing inflation in line as quickly as possible because it hurts people with savings and prolonged higher interest rates could cause a massive correction in the housing market.

So yes, ask for that pay rise, don't be shy - you earned it too!

[Ozanne]

Plus as I say this isn't inflation brought about by consumer spending its supply based so in theory we need people to be out spending not sitting at home saving because they can't afford to eat/heat.

[steviewevie]

Whoops

 

[lost]

8 hours ago, mattiloy said:

I'm of the view that price wage spirals are something of a myth, a scaremongering tactic - the cost of producing something is only partly wages so there are diminishing returns to price rises with increases in wages.

Its the highest cost for business labour. Its why outsourcing is so attractive and equally why labour basically supported it in the 2000's because they blamed what happened in the 1970's on them being out of power for a generation under Thatcher.

[steviewevie]

was listening to new statesman podcast this morning whilst out for a jog because I'm super cool and rock and roll, and they talked a bit about starmer at PMQs focussing on state of NHS services and not going for the kill on the johnson VONC, and they were saying the labour line was that they need to attack tory policy and not just johnson because he could be gone soon, and in focus groups in the places with by-elections people were complaining about state of health care and other services more than johnson. There was some disagreement whether this was the right tactic or not though.

[Ozanne]

28 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

was listening to new statesman podcast this morning whilst out for a jog because I'm super cool and rock and roll, and they talked a bit about starmer at PMQs focussing on state of NHS services and not going for the kill on the johnson VONC, and they were saying the labour line was that they need to attack tory policy and not just johnson because he could be gone soon, and in focus groups in the places with by-elections people were complaining about state of health care and other services more than johnson. There was some disagreement whether this was the right tactic or not though.

Shockingly he knew what he was doing then?

[gary1979666]

2 hours ago, lost said:

Its the highest cost for business labour. Its why outsourcing is so attractive and equally why labour basically supported it in the 2000's because they blamed what happened in the 1970's on them being out of power for a generation under Thatcher.

To add to that, on top of labour, and 3rd party materials brought in will also carry a labour element (so a large part of the cost of the pizza box is labour, the ingredients, etc - normally 50% of a product's cost is people).  Outside of that you'll see the next biggest costs being premises and utilities....!

It won't affect just the lower paid in the company.  If delivery boy gets an increase, then the guy making the pizza wants one, then the store manager, then the lady in Domino's head office, etc.

 

[steviewevie]

10 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Shockingly he knew what he was doing then?

well, it's a tactic, so have to see if gets cut through...have to remember these arent' starmer's decisions alone, he has a whole bunch of advisers. What Starmer can be crisicised for is if his delivery is crap. One crisicism on that NS podcast was that he just keeps getting written up as a bit crap and ineffective in these PMQs and other things and this filers through to the public.

[gary1979666]

14 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I wish they would just be honest and say they don’t want us to have anymore money. 

I bet if Boris could give the electorate more money right now, he would.  If he could turn on the tap and say "don't worry about rising fuel bills, higher interest rates, etc - have some extra cash on me." Then he would....then he'd call an election and everyone would vote tory, using fivers as voting slips.  But he knows it's not practical (well, he'll have been told it isn't.)

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

To add to that, on top of labour, and 3rd party materials brought in will also carry a labour element (so a large part of the cost of the pizza box is labour, the ingredients, etc - normally 50% of a product's cost is people).  Outside of that you'll see the next biggest costs being premises and utilities....!

It won't affect just the lower paid in the company.  If delivery boy gets an increase, then the guy making the pizza wants one, then the store manager, then the lady in Domino's head office, etc.

 

yeah, ok, but this is minimum wage, so in theory should only be those on lowest wages getting a payrise, and maybe it is about having less disparity with wages, this country is so unequal and this would help to address this.

And maybe the prices has to be passed onto customers some times. Like things like deliveries...we all expect free delivery on our internet orders, and meanwhile delivery drivers are paid fuck all with fuck all rights etc

[lost]

That's why tax credits were invented. So people can have increases in income without it feeding into inflation or pricing their labour out of the market.

[Ozanne]

24 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

well, it's a tactic, so have to see if gets cut through...have to remember these arent' starmer's decisions alone, he has a whole bunch of advisers. What Starmer can be crisicised for is if his delivery is crap. One crisicism on that NS podcast was that he just keeps getting written up as a bit crap and ineffective in these PMQs and other things and this filers through to the public.

Take a look at his last question, on many different occasions he’s got the Commons in silence like that. It was quite a powerful question.

They are talking nonsense as he wins PMQs every week.

What do these people want? More personal attacks on Partygate or questions about policy? I dare say whatever he does they’ll moan and claim they want the opposite. 

22 minutes ago, gary1979666 said:

I bet if Boris could give the electorate more money right now, he would.  If he could turn on the tap and say "don't worry about rising fuel bills, higher interest rates, etc - have some extra cash on me." Then he would....then he'd call an election and everyone would vote tory, using fivers as voting slips.  But he knows it's not practical (well, he'll have been told it isn't.)

I doubt very much that Johnson wants to give us more money. He doesn’t care about us, like the rest of the Tories he wishes us plebs to have just enough to get by. 

[Neil]

3 hours ago, lost said:

Its the highest cost for business labour. Its why outsourcing is so attractive

because the cost of labour can be outsourced and saved on i'm currently paying uk NMW i'd be quids in paying india MW.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Neil

[steviewevie]

[Ozanne]

35 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

What a beautiful man. 

[steviewevie]

40 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

What a beautiful man. 

I'd like to see him slowly drink that.