Jump to content

Glasto politics: Non covid news


zahidf
 Share

Recommended Posts

14 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

you don't believe there's any concept of value? Really?

The system can be temporarily manipulated around that in the short term but a belief in value is always the underpinning idea.

Idk what you mean, if you mean that the aggregate supply curve is fixed and any increases in demand simply lead to inflation then yes I fundamentally disagree. To suggest that there can be no long term boost to the aggregate productive capacity through government expenditure is absurd.

16 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

have you ever stopped to consider that the politics of solidarity is about something bigger than 'me'? 'Me before everyone' is the tory way.

The mask slips and the authoritarian nature of the centrist dad (hence the dad) is revealed. We should all get in line and vote for the good of the fatherland is it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mattiloy said:

 

My score for his speech 4/10 - well spoken, light on content, nothing radical, not much Imagination.

yeah...I think most people agree austerity is shit, including Boris Johnson, but there weren't many proposals on labour would fix it all. Still, he had to say something, and everything still so uncertain at moment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah...I think most people agree austerity is shit, including Boris Johnson, but there weren't many proposals on labour would fix it all. Still, he had to say something, and everything still so uncertain at moment.

True enough.

Pretty ed miliband in tone. Didnt mind Ed. Think most of the Corbyn mob harboured no malice towards him. But he lost against what had been a shambolic coalition govt and largely because he didn’t put his balls on the line. Theresa May also a good example that you can’t just stand for nothing and get by.

Come on Starmer, constitutional reform, bin the lords, big investment, scrap trident, lets not be shy now. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Imagine what they think of the music industry if they're saying this about theatre...they know their audience so I can't see this touring visa thing being sorted if that's how they feel

It's like they want to remove the "old" culture and replace it with their "approved" views. This is one reason why I'm so concerned about when it comes back after covid, they just don't care/actively find it funny or positive

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Idk what you mean, if you mean that the aggregate supply curve is fixed and any increases in demand simply lead to inflation then yes I fundamentally disagree. To suggest that there can be no long term boost to the aggregate productive capacity through government expenditure is absurd.

I'm pointing out that an increase in demand caused by the creation of new money can never come for free.

The underlying consideration of all transactions is value.

Am I exchanging my labour for something worthwhile? - a consideration made by everyone in the chain of transactions, not just 'me'.

 

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The mask slips and the authoritarian nature of the centrist dad (hence the dad) is revealed. We should all get in line and vote for the good of the fatherland is it?

I'm simply pointing out that you have no understanding of how social ideas come to be adopted.

It is not via being politically individualist. It doesn't get more Tory than putting 'me' before everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

True enough.

Pretty ed miliband in tone. Didnt mind Ed. Think most of the Corbyn mob harboured no malice towards him. But he lost against what had been a shambolic coalition govt and largely because he didn’t put his balls on the line. Theresa May also a good example that you can’t just stand for nothing and get by.

Come on Starmer, constitutional reform, bin the lords, big investment, scrap trident, lets not be shy now. 

So a complete rejection of Corbyn's policies then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

True enough.

Pretty ed miliband in tone. Didnt mind Ed. Think most of the Corbyn mob harboured no malice towards him. But he lost against what had been a shambolic coalition govt and largely because he didn’t put his balls on the line. Theresa May also a good example that you can’t just stand for nothing and get by.

Come on Starmer, constitutional reform, bin the lords, big investment, scrap trident, lets not be shy now. 

I think there needs to be a big push on green policies...Green New Deal and all that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I'm pointing out that an increase in demand caused by the creation of new money can never come for free.

The underlying consideration of all transactions is value.

Am I exchanging my labour for something worthwhile? - a consideration made by everyone in the chain of transactions, not just 'me'.


If an increase in government spending is matched by an equivalent increase in productivity we get real economic growth.

You can increase productivity quite easily by spending dough on public services. Better health, education, transport. Not to mention that when you pay people’s wages they spend them, poorer people spend proportionally more of their wages, they spend them at businesses, those businesses grow and invest, employ more people, and so on. A virtuous cycle.

They should stop calling it government spending and start calling it government investment which is more accurate.

2 hours ago, eFestivals said:

 

It is not via being politically individualist. It doesn't get more Tory than putting 'me' before everything.

Righty ho Chairman. Vote for ’the greater good’ it is.
For ’liberals’ the centre dont half advocate authoritarianism, conformity, cancelling everybody. Its weird.

The labour party should be making and winning the argument that one’s own interest is in alignment with that of society- not seeing them as separate goals. That is tory. Believing that unless you force people to take their medicine, and abide by the rules they will revert to this mythical self interested homo economicus archetype.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Mr.Tease said:

Imagine writing that piece and wanting to have it published with your name and photo on. The war on woke won't be won until everyone has to like me! At least it shows what this is all really about😂

The Tories have an 80 seat majority with a press that generally speaking is kind to them yet still try and pretend to be the victims. They are shameless. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, mattiloy said:


If an increase in government spending is matched by an equivalent increase in productivity we get real economic growth.

You can increase productivity quite easily by spending dough on public services. Better health, education, transport. Not to mention that when you pay people’s wages they spend them, poorer people spend proportionally more of their wages, they spend them at businesses, those businesses grow and invest, employ more people, and so on. A virtuous cycle.

They should stop calling it government spending and start calling it government investment which is more accurate.

Righty ho Chairman. Vote for ’the greater good’ it is.
For ’liberals’ the centre dont half advocate authoritarianism, conformity, cancelling everybody. Its weird.

The labour party should be making and winning the argument that one’s own interest is in alignment with that of society- not seeing them as separate goals. That is tory. Believing that unless you force people to take their medicine, and abide by the rules they will revert to this mythical self interested homo economicus archetype.

Lol

i disagree that everyone must conform with uncompromising you, and that gets the hate spiel.

I recognise the diversity of ideas and viewpoints that exist in real people and that's me demanding conformity.

You can do what the fuck you like, and I'm sure you will. It's not the way to electoral victory tho, because it's about you and not what can be improved via the public support it can muster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I’ve noticed Savanta never shows good polls for Labour so this isn’t a surprise. 

Honestly, as someone who obsessively followed the polls the last few years, spare yourself the anguish- the Tories natural landing point is 42-43%. Occasionally it dips if something annoying is happening, and you start thinking "wow, maybe this is the turning point!", but it always resets back to 42-43% sometimes for no reason at all. Their voters are the most stubborn/loyal and most likely to vote. Only time it collapsed really was when they p'd off their ukipper voters when it looked like they were going to 'betray' Brexit. As long as they keep them sweet we're stuffed!

Meanwhile Labour voters (if they bother voting- and I say that as a member and life long voter), easily switch between threatening to vote for the Libdems or greens or not at all- they max out at 40% on a good day then slump back to 35%-37%(sometimes for no particular reason) depending on what section of it's voter base it's p'd off and pleased that week

Edited by Mr.Tease
  • Upvote 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

Honestly, as someone who obsessively followed the polls the last few years, spare yourself the anguish- the Tories natural landing point is 42-43%. Occasionally it dips if something annoying is happening, and you start thinking "wow, maybe this is the turning point!", but it always resets back to 42-43% sometimes for no reason at all. Their voters are the most stubborn/loyal and most likely to vote. Only time it collapsed really was when they p'd off their ukipper voters when it looked like they were going to 'betray' Brexit. As long as they keep them sweet we're stuffed!

Meanwhile Labour voters (if they bother voting- and I say that as a member and life long voter), easily switch between threatening to vote for the Libdems or greens or not at all- they max out at 40% on a good day then slump back to 35%-37%(sometimes for no particular reason) depending on what section of it's voter base it's p'd off and pleased that week

Thanks for the heads up! I have become a bit of a poll watcher since the 2019 GE campaign. How come at one stage Corbyn had Labour polling at 45% was that when May couldn’t get her deal through the Commons?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Lol

i disagree that everyone must conform with uncompromising you, and that gets the hate spiel.

I recognise the diversity of ideas and viewpoints that exist in real people and that's me demanding conformity.

You can do what the fuck you like, and I'm sure you will. It's not the way to electoral victory tho, because it's about you and not what can be improved via the public support it can muster.

You’re right, I will. My argument is that everybody is entitled to their view, the only way to win people over is by inspiring and persuading them.

The labour party is never going to win the debate if it already concedes that the tories have, on the whole, a reasonable approach to economics.

Simply being the not-tories party, vote for us because we’re not the tories, isnt good enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Thanks for the heads up! I have become a bit of a poll watcher since the 2019 GE campaign. How come at one stage Corbyn had Labour polling at 45% was that when May couldn’t get her deal through the Commons?

I think during the Corbyn era (or at least for a while) the UKIP vote was up for grabs (they thought the issue was settled following the referendum and labour were able to win some of it over without alienating the rest of it’s vote). The 2017 election somehow managed to unite labour’s electoral coalition, added UKIP voters and some new voters, and then Grenfell happened shortly after and Corbyn caught the zeitgeist, because it perfectly visualised Tory apathetic and neglect (I may be remembering this wrongly but I think that’s when labour had its highest polling?). It was all down hill from there though!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Idk what you mean

then you don't understand the subject you raised. Money is money. Value is what money is traded for.

 

18 hours ago, mattiloy said:

, if you mean that the aggregate supply curve is fixed and any increases in demand simply lead to inflation then yes I fundamentally disagree. To suggest that there can be no long term boost to the aggregate productive capacity through government expenditure is absurd.

there can be a boost to output, but there cannot be a long-term artificial boost to output. For more, see Greece. For more, understand value.

(will I get the 'bastard EU' response to what happened in Greece, or might you side with the work of the workers the which Greece wanted for nothing?)

With your perfect take on economics here you'll have to tell us why we're not already millionaires, Rodney.

 

18 hours ago, mattiloy said:

The mask slips and the authoritarian nature of the centrist dad (hence the dad) is revealed. We should all get in line and vote for the good of the fatherland is it?

lol. I think you need a dictionary matey, or the hugest slice of new and enlightening self-awareness.

I'm the one in this conversation who is able to accept that there's a diversity of different views, and that winning elections comes from building a big enough coalition around those differing views.

I'm the one who smart enough to know that it's impossible to win by rejecting all views except my own.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

then you don't understand the subject you raised. Money is money. Value is what money is traded for.

 

1) there can be a boost to output, but there cannot be a long-term artificial boost to output. For more, see Greece. For more, understand value.

(will I get the 'bastard EU' response to what happened in Greece, or might you side with the work of the workers the which Greece wanted for nothing?)

With your perfect take on economics here you'll have to tell us why we're not already millionaires, Rodney.

 

lol. I think you need a dictionary matey, or the hugest slice of new and enlightening self-awareness.

2) I'm the one in this conversation who is able to accept that there's a diversity of different views, and that winning elections comes from building a big enough coalition around those differing views.

I'm the one who smart enough to know that it's impossible to win by rejecting all views except my own.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/03/greece-overspending-defence-wages-taxation-economic-crisis 
 

1) Why Greece went so heavily into the red - there is a difference between increasing spending on public services and wasteful spending on white elephants (like foreign manufactured military hardware). Added to that that Greece did not have a functioning tax collection system.

There can and is a long term boost to output from government spending. As I already said, the money that a government spends can make workers more skilled, healthier, or if a direct transfer, gets respent by the recipients and in doing so it creates wealth in the local community which allows investment by businesses, the creation of new jobs and thus boosts output.

This is what I mean though - neoclassical economics is what is told to the people because it suits those who own things and it is a nice, easy theory to wrap your head around - current account spending only leads to inflation, overspend, get debt, pay debt off. In reality the interactions between government spending, economic actors and taxes is not so simple. Government current account spending can lead to a net long term increase in output.

2) Nonsense, you were all to happy to rag on Corbyn when he was leader. I wouldnt be surprised if you had voted for the lib dems in 2019, am i right? But suddenly when its your guy in the big seat everybody has to get in line and get behind the leadership. Utter codswallop!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

There can and is a long term boost to output from government spending.

 

only within limits.

Such as the limit of how many hours a guy in China will work to send the UK stuff without the UK having something to send in return.

There's a theory which you'e considering in perfect circumstances, and then there's the UK which has (basically) no raw materials and therefore no production, and so is only able to offer holding open the door for the guy in China ... which is an idea of something of value in return, but is a bit difficult to do from the UK. 

 

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

As I already said, the money that a government spends can make workers more skilled, healthier, or if a direct transfer, gets respent by the recipients and in doing so it creates wealth in the local community which allows investment by businesses, the creation of new jobs and thus boosts output.

no shit sherlock. Also, money that a govt spends can be flushed down the bog.

And when people vote for a political party's spending plan, part of what they consider is whether their wealth is going to be pissed away. Surely non-authoritarian you has noticed this?

 

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

This is what I mean though - neoclassical economics is what is told to the people because it suits those who own things and it is a nice, easy theory to wrap your head around - current account spending only leads to inflation, overspend, get debt, pay debt off. In reality the interactions between government spending, economic actors and taxes is not so simple. Government current account spending can lead to a net long term increase in output.

"Not so simple" - who knew? So perhaps your spending plan might not work out? But whatever, some people will definitely believe your we-can-have-everything plan won't work out. 

"can"? Again, who knew.

 

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

2) Nonsense, you were all to happy to rag on Corbyn when he was leader.

Corbyn was shit as a leader. Corbyn had the hugest pile of baggage over ideas that where the opposite to widespread UK public opinion. People might have thought his spending plans were OK, but they didn't think (for example*) that the IRA were the good guys in 'the troubles' (or something similar from a very long list).

(* and it doesn't matter how much you want to claim Corbyn was right about everything. As far as getting elected goes, being right doesn't mean shit)

 

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

I wouldnt be surprised if you had voted for the lib dems in 2019, am i right? But suddenly when its your guy in the big seat everybody has to get in line and get behind the leadership. Utter codswallop!

lol, you just can't help showing what a dick you are, can you?

I'm saying that winning requires the building of a coalition of diverse views, because not everyone is down the purist rabbit hole with the electoral support of just 'me'.

See above for why Corbyn was *always* the wrong guy.

Is Starmer the right guy? Who knows, but he's clearly more popular than Corbyn.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, mattiloy said:

True enough.

Pretty ed miliband in tone. Didnt mind Ed. Think most of the Corbyn mob harboured no malice towards him. But he lost against what had been a shambolic coalition govt and largely because he didn’t put his balls on the line. Theresa May also a good example that you can’t just stand for nothing and get by.

Come on Starmer, constitutional reform, bin the lords, big investment, scrap trident, lets not be shy now. 

They didn't even pledge to that under Corbyn lol even tho he is hugely opposed to nukes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

 

only within limits.

Such as the limit of how many hours a guy in China will work to send the UK stuff without the UK having something to send in return.

There's a theory which you'e considering in perfect circumstances, and then there's the UK which has (basically) no raw materials and therefore no production, and so is only able to offer holding open the door for the guy in China ... which is an idea of something of value in return, but is a bit difficult to do from the UK. 

 

no shit sherlock. Also, money that a govt spends can be flushed down the bog.

And when people vote for a political party's spending plan, part of what they consider is whether their wealth is going to be pissed away. Surely non-authoritarian you has noticed this?

 

"Not so simple" - who knew? So perhaps your spending plan might not work out? But whatever, some people will definitely believe your we-can-have-everything plan won't work out. 

"can"? Again, who knew.

 

Corbyn was shit as a leader. Corbyn had the hugest pile of baggage over ideas that where the opposite to widespread UK public opinion. People might have thought his spending plans were OK, but they didn't think (for example*) that the IRA were the good guys in 'the troubles' (or something similar from a very long list).

(* and it doesn't matter how much you want to claim Corbyn was right about everything. As far as getting elected goes, being right doesn't mean shit)

 

lol, you just can't help showing what a dick you are, can you?

I'm saying that winning requires the building of a coalition of diverse views, because not everyone is down the purist rabbit hole with the electoral support of just 'me'.

See above for why Corbyn was *always* the wrong guy.

Is Starmer the right guy? Who knows, but he's clearly more popular than Corbyn.

 

30% of consumption is spent on imports - admittedly, this does make any direct transfers less impactful but most of the dough stays in the uk. Furthermore, I'd guess that the lower down the socioeconomic ladder you go, the more of that money is spent on domestic goods and services so the impact of direct transfers to those in need will be less effected by leakages due to imports.

Pissed away is government sponsored private monopolies. You spend more on rail fare for a inferior service, the profits go to wealthy shareholders and are whisked away to the BVI.

Pissed away is not closing tax loopholes. 

Pissed away is a nuclear deterrent we'll never use.

Pissed away is the house of lords.

Most economists worth listening to advocate Corbynesque spending plans these days. The aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis was basically a great A/B test of whether Keynesian/MMT fiscal stimulus plans or monetarist QE, austerity plans worked best in the event of an economic downturn. The former won.

I don't contest that the man himself had a past that, whilst personally doesnt cause me any offense (nor anybody reasonable), could be leveraged by those who are opposed to progressive politics in the media and in the PLP.

Starmer doesn't have that but in order to build a coalition he has to give the left something to vote for beyond a haircut and knighthood.

And yes, I do talk about 'me' because I am only in control of my own vote. I don't have a say on how others cast theirs. But I also presume that I am representative of many people like me - and indeed this is reflected in current polling. If you look back to my posts here over the last 12 months, you will see somebody initially open minded to Starmer, then by the end of last year you will read that I wrote that he is alienating the left and that the gains in the centre would likely be cancelled out by the losses on the left. And here we are.

I accept that there should be diverse views, but not that diverse if you call yourself a left or even centre left party. Redistribution of income, renationalisation of failing private monopolies, improving workers rights, enhancing the voting power of the ordinary man (i.e. getting the lords and FPTP to fuck) should all be non negotiable. I'd say that if you don't believe in those things (mainstream centre left ideas anywhere else in the western world bar the US), what are you doing in the labour party?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.



×
×
  • Create New...