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19 minutes ago, Neil said:

people vote to create an outcome to their liking, and the majority obviously like tory govts.

Not true, it's just that the right wing vote in 2019 wasn't splintered the way that the left/centre-left was and has been for some time.

Edited by Kurosagi
Oops, just seen that steviewevie made the same point quicker than I could!
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14 minutes ago, Neil said:

and that 43% is happy with that outcome, so will still vote under pr to achieve that sort of outcome.

Not sure what evidence you're basing this view on.

That 43% isn't an unchanging chunk. Are you convinced that with a greater choice that would be available under PR (and yes Labour would split and split again, which I think would be a good thing...but only under PR) that 43% would still vote Tory when other centre-right options would be available?

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11 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Not true, it's just that the right wing vote in 2019 wasn't splintered the way that the left/centre-left was and has been for some time.

It was a bit. Off the top of my head Yvette cooper, Ed Miliband and Jon Trickett would of all gone if not for the brexit party and that's just around here.

Edited by lost
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27 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:
28 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

Not sure what evidence you're basing this view on.

How many years have the tories been in charge for now ?

Neil was extrapolating FPTP past results to life under a future PR system. I was asking why the 40+% tory vote would remain intact after a few PR election cycles. I don't see how your comment relates. With a PR system operational for a decade or more, do you (like Neil) think that the tory party would be immune to splits?

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I guess if we had PR we'd probably still end up with centre left/right or good old plain centrist governments like elsewhere, but maybe we'd have fewer tory governments...The French election is kind of interesting...proportional for first round, and if no outright majority then top two in 2nd round...and they've ended up with mr sexy boy centrist versus eccentric cat lover and racist...and the left don't know what the fuck to do.

Edited by steviewevie
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I think most people start off left wing when they are young and then for the majority of us we move to the right to varying degrees as we get older hence the names centrist dad or blue rinse brigade. If you are right wing and think the left are wrong then as you can comprehend being left wing when you were younger your more likely to think the opposition to your point of view is naïve or inexperienced. On the left however you've probably never been right wing, can't comprehend that opinion and therefore think its evil or something similar. I think because of that the left demands an absolutism on all opinions and is more likely to go all peoples front of Judea vs Judea's peoples front and split.

You just look at what's happening in labour currently between 3rd wave and 4th wave feminists over the trans stuff.

Edited by lost
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1 hour ago, lost said:

They do keep splitting sort of. SDP under Benn and change UK under Corbyn. What happens though is then when the left have control, labour get decimated at the polls and those that stuck around then seem to get back in under a period of self relection.

Didn't Arthur Scargill have a crack at a unionist labour party too when Blair took control?

yeah, but those new parties don't survive...whereas with PR they'd have a much better chance of survival and so there would likely be a lot more of it. As long as labour remains electable they won't support PR. It only comes up when it looks like they'll never win a majority again...at the moment it doesn't look that likely, but also doesn't look impossible.

Edited by steviewevie
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2 minutes ago, lost said:

I think most people start off left wing when they are young and then for the majority of us we move to the right to varying degrees as we get older hence the names centrist dad or blue rinse brigade. If you are right wing and think the left are wrong then as you can comprehend being left wing when you were younger your more likely to think the opposition to your point of view is naïve or inexperienced. On the left however you've probably never been right wing, can't comprehend that opinion and therefore think its evil or something similar. I think because of that the left demands an absolutism on all opinions and is more likely to go all peoples front of Judea vs Judea's peoples front and split.

 

seems to correlate with our brains shrinking.

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8 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

I guess if we had PR we'd probably still end up with centre left/right or good old plain centrist governments like elsewhere, but maybe we'd have fewer tory governments

At least PR gives those of us who are interested in policies/politics (the weird minority who actually read manifestos) a party to vote for that doesn't involve holding our nose. And through coalition there's more of a prospect of at least some of those policies being adopted through horsetrading. It also provides the opportunity for other parties to adopt a policy that is against their rigid ideology but makes sense for long term interests.

An example would be something like an overhaul of the drug laws, historically this is a huge ideological no-no for the tory party, and whilst labour are sympathetic they're scared to touch it due to an easy kicking from the tory press, but the policy could easily see the light of day where it is simply rationalised as the price of coalition. No press kicking and we get an updated policy that wouldn't see the light of day under FPTP because there's no chance of the libdems or greens winning a general election.

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8 minutes ago, Kurosagi said:

At least PR gives those of us who are interested in policies/politics (the weird minority who actually read manifestos) a party to vote for that doesn't involve holding our nose. And through coalition there's more of a prospect of at least some of those policies being adopted through horsetrading. It also provides the opportunity for other parties to adopt a policy that is against their rigid ideology but makes sense for long term interests.

An example would be something like an overhaul of the drug laws, historically this is a huge ideological no-no for the tory party, and whilst labour are sympathetic they're scared to touch it due to an easy kicking from the tory press, but the policy could easily see the light of day where it is simply rationalised as the price of coalition. No press kicking and we get an updated policy that wouldn't see the light of day under FPTP because there's no chance of the libdems or greens winning a general election.

yeah...yeah...all true. I am actually in favour of PR, but it certainly wouldn't be without problems...imagine a govt with Farage and Tice in the cabinet.

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5 hours ago, Kurosagi said:

Not true, it's just that the right wing vote in 2019 wasn't splintered the way that the left/centre-left was and has been for some time.

is true, they voted for a coalition, and didnt like the coalition, so voited tory.

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