Matt42 Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 The only solution really is to have them voted out. Can’t hang your hopes on a sue gray report. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, mattiloy said: I'm not sure you have. I think I know that you're probably an FBPE type but besides that its anybody's guess... I'd love to know where you stood on the nationalisation of rail for instance, as a decent indicator of where you are on economics? Maybe for you its all about tribalism, but for me its more than just cheering for a footie team. I have outlined my political views many times, again it's not on me to constantly outline them for you. I'm touched you look up to me so much to be bothered about my views. To make you happy though, I am pro rail nationalisation. You clearly would rather a Tory government than someone slightly different from the same Party you supported before, it essentially makes you a Tory. Just be honest about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Oh dear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraybentos1 Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 17 minutes ago, Ozanne said: it essentially makes you a Tory. Just be honest about it. This is such a bad take 😂😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 The Tories are eating themselves alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fraybentos1 Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 28 minutes ago, mattiloy said: I'm not sure you have. I think I know that you're probably an FBPE type but besides that its anybody's guess... I'd love to know where you stood on the nationalisation of rail for instance, as a decent indicator of where you are on economics? Maybe for you its all about tribalism, but for me its more than just cheering for a footie team. Basically boils down to a weird kind of crush/ obsession with starmer. As mentioned, ozanne voted Lib Dem in 2019 so he’s hardly a Labour loyalist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 8 minutes ago, Ozanne said: I have outlined my political views many times, again it's not on me to constantly outline them for you. I'm touched you look up to me so much to be bothered about my views. To make you happy though, I am pro rail nationalisation. You clearly would rather a Tory government than someone slightly different from the same Party you supported before, it essentially makes you a Tory. Just be honest about it. Yes, well the thing with Starmer is that his leadership campaign put him in a fairly radical reformist centre left position but since then he's moved well to the right and now appears to be a fairly committed Blairite. I'd put Blairism somewhere slightly to the right of centre. I don't see a difference between Blairism and the Cameron government. Indeed the lib dem 2010 surge was basically because they became the centre left party based on their manifesto. I disagree with Blairite positions on almost every policy area, in some fairly drastically, and in my opinion, another Blairite administration would be a pointless and detrimental exercise. So I'm a bit fascinated with what those who are behind Starmer are hoping for, a Blairite government (in which case kiss goodbye to your nationalised rail and say hello to austerity lite, the augmentation of the carbon based economy, too big for our boots foreign policy etc etc), or that Starmer is a double agent and once in power he'll revert to his centre left positions. The trouble with the latter is that he's now built a shadow cabinet of right wingers, and has overridden candidate selection to favour those who are on the right of the party whilst driving all the centre left folk out of the party. All of which suggests he will not revert to anything remotely leftist, because if he does win an election he'll be presiding over a right wing cabinet, with a right with parliamentary party and a right wing membership and he'll find it almost impossible to implement any of his old policy positions. Think Biden but with a whole party of Joe Manchins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 3 minutes ago, mattiloy said: Yes, well the thing with Starmer is that his leadership campaign put him in a fairly radical reformist centre left position but since then he's moved well to the right and now appears to be a fairly committed Blairite. I'd put Blairism somewhere slightly to the right of centre. I don't see a difference between Blairism and the Cameron government. Indeed the lib dem 2010 surge was basically because they became the centre left party based on their manifesto. I disagree with Blairite positions on almost every policy area, in some fairly drastically, and in my opinion, another Blairite administration would be a pointless and detrimental exercise. So I'm a bit fascinated with what those who are behind Starmer are hoping for, a Blairite government (in which case kiss goodbye to your nationalised rail and say hello to austerity lite, the augmentation of the carbon based economy, too big for our boots foreign policy etc etc), or that Starmer is a double agent and once in power he'll revert to his centre left positions. The trouble with the latter is that he's now built a shadow cabinet of right wingers, and has overridden candidate selection to favour those who are on the right of the party whilst driving all the centre left folk out of the party. All of which suggests he will not revert to anything remotely leftist, because if he does win an election he'll be presiding over a right wing cabinet, with a right with parliamentary party and a right wing membership and he'll find it almost impossible to implement any of his old policy positions. Think Biden but with a whole party of Joe Manchins. Maybe just wait for the labour manifesto and then you can do one of your blairite/centrist/fbpe rants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 (edited) 24 minutes ago, mattiloy said: Yes, well the thing with Starmer is that his leadership campaign put him in a fairly radical reformist centre left position but since then he's moved well to the right and now appears to be a fairly committed Blairite. I'd put Blairism somewhere slightly to the right of centre. I don't see a difference between Blairism and the Cameron government. Indeed the lib dem 2010 surge was basically because they became the centre left party based on their manifesto. I disagree with Blairite positions on almost every policy area, in some fairly drastically, and in my opinion, another Blairite administration would be a pointless and detrimental exercise. So I'm a bit fascinated with what those who are behind Starmer are hoping for, a Blairite government (in which case kiss goodbye to your nationalised rail and say hello to austerity lite, the augmentation of the carbon based economy, too big for our boots foreign policy etc etc), or that Starmer is a double agent and once in power he'll revert to his centre left positions. The trouble with the latter is that he's now built a shadow cabinet of right wingers, and has overridden candidate selection to favour those who are on the right of the party whilst driving all the centre left folk out of the party. All of which suggests he will not revert to anything remotely leftist, because if he does win an election he'll be presiding over a right wing cabinet, with a right with parliamentary party and a right wing membership and he'll find it almost impossible to implement any of his old policy positions. Think Biden but with a whole party of Joe Manchins. I've gone through quite a bit of this before about why a Labour government under Starmer would be infinitely better than the Tories. I'm not going to do it now all for you to ask the same questions again in another 2 months time. Edited January 22 by Ozanne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Dun dun dunnnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 5 hours ago, Ozanne said: I've gone through quite a bit of this before about why a Labour government under Starmer would be infinitely better than the Tories. I'm not going to do it now all for you to ask the same questions again in another 2 months time. Don’t think you have tbh. Putting the current exceptional circumstances to one side (so assuming Boris goes and is replaced by someone who isn’t a big floppy crook) - I don’t see why a Blairite government would be much better than a tory one. A big massive still sub inflation 2.1% pay rise versus a 1% pay rise for nurses? Inspiring stuff… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, mattiloy said: Don’t think you have tbh. Putting the current exceptional circumstances to one side (so assuming Boris goes and is replaced by someone who isn’t a big floppy crook) - I don’t see why a Blairite government would be much better than a tory one. A big massive still sub inflation 2.1% pay rise versus a 1% pay rise for nurses? Inspiring stuff… It won't be blairite, it will be starmerite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Gotta love a shy Tory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyfool1 Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Everyone loves a good q Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Ozanne said: Gotta love a shy Tory. Lol I wouldn’t mind if I was a tory. Some of my mates are tories. It doesn’t make you a bad person. Its just a different way of seeing the world, and in my view, a misinterpretation, which leads to poor government policy. Thats literally all there is to it. I just don’t think the world can be improved by tory solutions. But I’ve never known anybody believe in something so much and yet have so little understanding of what it is they actually believe in as centrists. Lets be honest, you have no idea about anything you believe in. If I asked you why you’re pro rail nationalisation for instance (without googling pros/cons rail nationalisation). If the coin you tossed landed on tails the day you were deciding which politics team to support, you’d be as furiously pro Boris as you are now anti Boris. As shallow as it gets. Edited January 22 by mattiloy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ommadawn Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 7 hours ago, Matt42 said: Sorry I’ve been dipping in and out of this. Do we expect Boris to stay on now? No, but it will be very messy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahidf Posted January 22 Author Report Share Posted January 22 Vice chair of the 1922 Committee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 4 minutes ago, mattiloy said: Lol I wouldn’t mind if I was a tory. Some of my mates are tories. It doesn’t make you a bad person. Its just a different way of seeing the world, and in my view, a misinterpretation, which leads to poor government policy. Thats literally all there is to it. I just don’t think the world can be improved by tory solutions. But I’ve never known anybody believe in something so much and yet have so little understanding of what it is they actually believe in as centrists. Lets be honest, you have no idea what you believe. If the coin you tossed landed on tails the day you were deciding which politics team to support, you’d be as furiously pro Boris as you are now anti Boris. As shallow as it gets. You seem to have a problem reading what people say to you, why should I go through my beliefs again when you clearly don't read them? I've outlined some of them before and yet a few months later you come back to me again like a desperately starved Oliver Twist. I'm happy with my beliefs and what I feel would make for as better world. I'm not gonna go through them yet again for you no matter how much you bleet on at me. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 31 minutes ago, mattiloy said: Some of my mates are tories eww Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 34 minutes ago, Ozanne said: You seem to have a problem reading what people say to you, why should I go through my beliefs again when you clearly don't read them? I've outlined some of them before and yet a few months later you come back to me again like a desperately starved Oliver Twist. I'm happy with my beliefs and what I feel would make for as better world. I'm not gonna go through them yet again for you no matter how much you bleet on at me. Not sure that you have. From what I’ve seen of you the impression I get is of someone who only engages with politics on a fairly superficial level. Not too interested in establishing the truth. Fairly incurious. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted January 22 Report Share Posted January 22 1 minute ago, mattiloy said: Not sure that you have. From what I’ve seen of you the impression I get is of someone who only engages with politics on a fairly superficial level. Not too interested in establishing the truth. Fairly incurious. Yep I have, you clearly haven't paid attention to it so why should I go through it again. All this because I've been criticising the Tories, pretty embarrassing stuff on your part, you've had an absolute mare here today. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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