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3 hours ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

Labour have expelled Ken Loach 🤦‍♂️ 

incredible director, haven't really kept up with the controversy, did he say something anti-Semitic? I never ever got any hateful vibes from his films. I, Daniel Blake is heartbreaking and excellent.

 

They've also readmitted Trevor Phillips without any investigation into his statements...

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1 hour ago, Haan said:

incredible director, haven't really kept up with the controversy, did he say something anti-Semitic? I never ever got any hateful vibes from his films. I, Daniel Blake is heartbreaking and excellent.

 

They've also readmitted Trevor Phillips without any investigation into his statements...

I think it's because of support for groups that have been kicked out recently.

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9 hours ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

 He was also asked about a conference fringe event at which Miko Peled suggested people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust had happened. Loach responded: "I think history is for all of us to discuss. The founding of the state of Israel, for example, based on ethnic cleansing, is there for us all to discuss, so don't try and subvert that by false stories of antisemitism"

How exactly are his words twisted here? Seems pretty cut and dry? But he's got previous:

Responding to a report, which Loach described as "a red herring", on the growth of antisemitism since the beginning of the Gaza War of 2008–2009, he said: "If there has been a rise I am not surprised. In fact, it is perfectly understandable because Israel feeds feelings of anti-Semitism"

So Jews should be held to account for the actions of the Isreali government? And that's understandable. Icing on the cake:

In April 2018, Loach was reported to have said, at a screening of I, Daniel Blake organised by Kingswood Labour Party, that those Labour MPs who had attended a rally in Parliament Square the previous month opposing alleged antisemitism in the Labour Party should be deselected or, as he reputedly expressed it, "kicked out" because of their lack of support for the current manifesto

The man's an anti-Semite and a nasty piece of work, good riddance. 

Edited by topmarksbri
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7 hours ago, topmarksbri said:

 He was also asked about a conference fringe event at which Miko Peled suggested people should be allowed to question whether the Holocaust had happened. Loach responded: "I think history is for all of us to discuss. The founding of the state of Israel, for example, based on ethnic cleansing, is there for us all to discuss, so don't try and subvert that by false stories of antisemitism"

How exactly are his words twisted here? Seems pretty cut and dry? But he's got previous:

Responding to a report, which Loach described as "a red herring", on the growth of antisemitism since the beginning of the Gaza War of 2008–2009, he said: "If there has been a rise I am not surprised. In fact, it is perfectly understandable because Israel feeds feelings of anti-Semitism"

So Jews should be held to account for the actions of the Isreali government? And that's understandable. Icing on the cake:

In April 2018, Loach was reported to have said, at a screening of I, Daniel Blake organised by Kingswood Labour Party, that those Labour MPs who had attended a rally in Parliament Square the previous month opposing alleged antisemitism in the Labour Party should be deselected or, as he reputedly expressed it, "kicked out" because of their lack of support for the current manifesto

The man's an anti-Semite and a nasty piece of work, good riddance. 

The article you quoted is in direct response to the case you've mentioned in your first paragraph. If you want to talk about cut and dried I don't think he could've been any clearer:

"The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation. Like readers of this paper, I know the history of Holocaust denial, its place in far right politics and the role of people like David Irving. To imply that I would have anything in common with them is contemptible."

The other examples are lazy, and unfortunately, synonymous of much of the discourse in the left around Israel and Palestine. I don't think it makes him an anti-semite in the same way that I don't think the likes of Sam Harris are anti-muslim bigots for some of the opinions he's espoused regarding terrorism. 

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35 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

The article you quoted is in direct response to the case you've mentioned in your first paragraph. If you want to talk about cut and dried I don't think he could've been any clearer:

"The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation. Like readers of this paper, I know the history of Holocaust denial, its place in far right politics and the role of people like David Irving. To imply that I would have anything in common with them is contemptible."

The other examples are lazy, and unfortunately, synonymous of much of the discourse in the left around Israel and Palestine. I don't think it makes him an anti-semite in the same way that I don't think the likes of Sam Harris are anti-muslim bigots for some of the opinions he's espoused regarding terrorism. 

isn't he into the whole holocaust revisionist thing, that zionists plotted with nazis...and there was a play about this he directed and that was banned? He seems a bit suspect to me, but he's made some good films about social injustice etc.

anyway...not sure he's been booted out for any of this, but for supporting one or some of these left wing groups being kicked out. Definitely a purge going on, probably will all end badly, labour should just split and then we can all live in a boris wonderland forever.

Edited by steviewevie
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It's still starting to feel like 'if you don't think like we do you are wrong and not allowed to have an opinion.'

Surely as always we need concersations not people being 'closed down.'

The left really isn't what it was when i was young and angry. I can't see how it can get it's way back to some kind of relevance to what used to be its heartland voters.

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2 hours ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

The article you quoted is in direct response to the case you've mentioned in your first paragraph. If you want to talk about cut and dried I don't think he could've been any clearer:

"The Holocaust is as real a historical event as the second world war itself and not to be challenged. In Primo Levi’s words: “Those who deny Auschwitz would be ready to remake it.” The terrible pictures I first saw as a nine-year-old are ingrained on my memory, as they are for all my generation. Like readers of this paper, I know the history of Holocaust denial, its place in far right politics and the role of people like David Irving. To imply that I would have anything in common with them is contemptible."

Yeah - he clearly got caught out and wanted to row back. For me, saying that the holocaust is a historical event which can be questioned loses you any right of reply. You can't say something racist then apologise for it the next day and it's all just ok.

2 hours ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

The other examples are lazy, and unfortunately, synonymous of much of the discourse in the left around Israel and Palestine. I don't think it makes him an anti-semite in the same way that I don't think the likes of Sam Harris are anti-muslim bigots for some of the opinions he's espoused regarding terrorism. 

Care to expand on this? Do you think it's acceptable to say that antisemitism is to be expected due to Isreali actions? Would you say the same for Saudi Arabia and Muslims? What's "lazy" about him wanting to kick out MPs who were protesting against antisemitism?

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1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

isn't he into the whole holocaust revisionist thing, that zionists plotted with nazis...and there was a play about this he directed and that was banned? He seems a bit suspect to me, but he's made some good films about social injustice etc.

anyway...not sure he's been booted out for any of this, but for supporting one or some of these left wing groups being kicked out. Definitely a purge going on, probably will all end badly, labour should just split and then we can all live in a boris wonderland forever.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perdition_(play) a play which claims that Jews collaborated with the Nazis during the holocaust. How anyone can defend him cos he made some films they like is beyond me. 

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4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Taliban on outskirts of Kabul, US embassy evacuating. Last 20 years of supposed rebuilding Afghanistan reverted in just a few weeks. What a total waste of time, money and lives.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58195336
 

This is quite a good write up and basically Biden’s view is ‘if not now, when?’

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23 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

Yeah - he clearly got caught out and wanted to row back. For me, saying that the holocaust is a historical event which can be questioned loses you any right of reply. You can't say something racist then apologise for it the next day and it's all just ok.

Care to expand on this? Do you think it's acceptable to say that antisemitism is to be expected due to Isreali actions? Would you say the same for Saudi Arabia and Muslims? What's "lazy" about him wanting to kick out MPs who were protesting against antisemitism?

Where did I say it was acceptable? 

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41 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

You said the examples were lazy and didn't really elaborate on this, so presumably you don't think what he said was an issue?

Then your presumptions are the issue here. Let me be clear;

I don't believe Ken Loach is a holocaust denier. In fact, it's a ridiculous claim given he's on record as posted above acknowledging the holocaust as a historical fact and it's horrific consquences.

I don't believe he is an anti-semite. He has a tendency, as I said above which is often synonymous with many of the left, of lazily conflating Jewish issues with the Palestinian conflict. Something which I don't necessarily agree with. I also don't agree with him wanting to 'kick out' MPs that disagree with him in the same way I don't think he should be kicked out for disagreeing with those same MPs now. 

And, just to clarify one last thing since you brought up Muslims/Saudi Arabia; I also already mentioned my thoughts towards Sam Harris, who has said - for example - that he supports racial profiling of Arabs at airports to support anti-terrorism. I fundamentally disagree with that argument, but I don't think it means he's an anti-muslim bigot.

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5 hours ago, danmarks said:

It's still starting to feel like 'if you don't think like we do you are wrong and not allowed to have an opinion.'

Surely as always we need concersations not people being 'closed down.'

The left really isn't what it was when i was young and angry. I can't see how it can get it's way back to some kind of relevance to what used to be its heartland voters.

Wasn't that Momentum's mantra?

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