news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

I'm not against intervention always, Kosovo where it happened, Rwanda and Syria where it didn't, maybe earlier intervention in Germany in the late 30s would have stopped a whole lot of bother? Spanish civil war when many from UK went anyway... etc. But, Afghanistan and Iraq always seemed reckless and not thought through. In Afghanistan if were going to build a new govt of course they should include the Taliban, not just a bunch of dodgy warlords and pro western Afghans on the make. Anyway, it's done now and I expect we will see less of this from the US for some time now, America first and all that.

[Ozanne]

34 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

That speech was incredible, I had goosebumps watching it.

Theresa May has torn into the government over this and ‘global Britain’.

Johnny Mercer the former Defence Minister has said the PM has ‘consistently failed to honour what he said he would do when he was trying to become Prime Minister.’

More of Johnson’s own MPs are getting angry with him. 

[mattiloy]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

Initially it wasn't about human rights, it was retaliation. 

52 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

not so much retaliation, more about getting OBL and shutting down the training camps. which was a success within limits.

Indeed but the outrage now is superficially about human rights when that concern is not expressed consistently.

 

30 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That speech was incredible, I had goosebumps watching it.

Theresa May has torn into the government over this and ‘global Britain’.

Johnny Mercer the former Defence Minister has said the PM has ‘consistently failed to honour what he said he would do when he was trying to become Prime Minister.’

More of Johnson’s own MPs are getting angry with him. 

Especially when expressed by those who have consistently voted to diminish human rights in their own country…

I for one am loving seeing all these ex forces sad bois crying as they realise that their neo colonialism doesn’t work and all their efforts were, in fact, utterly meaningless. I just hope they direct their bitterness at those who took them in there in the first place.

[steviewevie]

25 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Indeed but the outrage now is superficially about human rights when that concern is not expressed consistently.

 

Especially when expressed by those who have consistently voted to diminish human rights in their own country…

I for one am loving seeing all these ex forces sad bois crying as they realise that their neo colonialism doesn’t work and all their efforts were, in fact, utterly meaningless. I just hope they direct their bitterness at those who took them in there in the first place.

I don't know, all just seems very sad, such a massive loss of life over not very much.

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I'm not against intervention always, Kosovo where it happened

there was another 'famous' Blair successful intervention, was it ivory coast?

[eFestivals]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

I'm not against intervention always, Kosovo where it happened, Rwanda and Syria where it didn't, maybe earlier intervention in Germany in the late 30s would have stopped a whole lot of bother? Spanish civil war when many from UK went anyway... etc. But, Afghanistan and Iraq always seemed reckless and not thought through. In Afghanistan if were going to build a new govt of course they should include the Taliban, not just a bunch of dodgy warlords and pro western Afghans on the make. Anyway, it's done now and I expect we will see less of this from the US for some time now, America first and all that.

from the otherside, which countries do you think the uk could successfully invade in order to make them have proper allowable values, that are approved by you?

[eFestivals]

30 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Indeed but the outrage now is superficially about human rights when that concern is not expressed consistently.

 

Especially when expressed by those who have consistently voted to diminish human rights in their own country…

I for one am loving seeing all these ex forces sad bois crying as they realise that their neo colonialism doesn’t work and all their efforts were, in fact, utterly meaningless. I just hope they direct their bitterness at those who took them in there in the first place.

if the uk tried to force its 'values' on the rest of the world, how do you think it would get on and tell me why other countries can't have their own values, and how not allowing them to have values, is a uk value!

[mattiloy]

27 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

if the uk tried to force its 'values' on the rest of the world, how do you think it would get on and tell me why other countries can't have their own values, and how not allowing them to have values, is a uk value!

I think we’re on the same page here?
 

I don’t think its possible or even right to try to force a value system onto another culture. Particularly because the values are actually the idealised values of the day, but are not universally practised. There are many communities within the UK in which women are still treated as second class citizens. We don’t invade these communities or ban them from public life.

Furthermore, its only a generation or two ago that gays were prosecuted, criminals hung and women were seen more or less as chattel in the UK.

And a similar relatively short span of time since parts of the US practised apartheid.

Would the US/UK invade the US/UK to overthrow those brutal regimes of 1950s Britain/America?

Economic growth, industrialisation, urbanisation, education all achieve enlightenment far faster than any army does. Also, long term stability is a prerequisite for these things. The Afghan war has probably just set afghanistan back a generation.

[topmarksbri]

3 hours ago, mattiloy said:

Blairites!

[topmarksbri]

Watched Rory Stewart on Afghanistan on YouTube last night. Far from perfect and his weird love for Alexander Burnes indicates a veneration for imperialism that I think is pretty repugnant but it's a good watch and at least tries to explore some of the issues with the repeated occupation of the region. 

[Ozanne]

 

 

[Ozanne]

 

[Ommadawn]

I haven't watched much of the debate but has anyone suggested an alternative course of action to what the UK did?

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ommadawn

[Ozanne]

4 minutes ago, Ommadawn said:

I haven't watched much of the debate but has anyone suggested an alternative course of action to what the UK did?

Yeah, Theresa May gave the best alternative. She said we could’ve spoke to NATO and got other countries to come together to replace the soldiers that the US were taking away or at least to have some force there. She asked Johnson when he last spoke to the Sec Gen of NATO and he just vaguely said ‘the other day’.

[Ommadawn]

22 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Yeah, Theresa May gave the best alternative. She said we could’ve spoke to NATO and got other countries to come together to replace the soldiers that the US were taking away or at least to have some force there. She asked Johnson when he last spoke to the Sec Gen of NATO and he just vaguely said ‘the other day’.

Well, at least she had an alternative I suppose but I can't see how any other NATO country would commit forces knowing that the USA were pulling out.

Anything useful from Labour?

 

[Crazyfool01]

Question time was quite interesting .... is it a one off new time ? 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, at least she had an alternative I suppose but I can't see how any other NATO country would commit forces knowing that the USA were pulling out.

Anything useful from Labour?

 

Labour mainly just saying what a fuck up the whole thing is and that we should take more refugees.

[Ozanne]

So, do we think we are seeing the final days of Johnson?

[steviewevie]

31 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

So, do we think we are seeing the final days of Johnson?

Probably not

[Ozanne]

 

[Ommadawn]

5 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

Well, at least she had an alternative I suppose but I can't see how any other NATO country would commit forces knowing that the USA were pulling out.

Anything useful from Labour?

 

 

3 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Labour mainly just saying what a fuck up the whole thing is and that we should take more refugees.

So no then.

[Ommadawn]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

So, do we think we are seeing the final days of Johnson?

I don't think he'll be Prime Minister a year from now but not because of this, mainly because all the other parties know they would have to have done the same but just won't admit it.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ommadawn

[Ozanne]

 

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

I don't think he'll be Prime Minister a year from now but not because of this, mainly because all the other parties know they would have to have done the same but just won't admit it.

eh? Johnson will be kicked out because labour has no alternative?

Johnson will stay put until he makes one cock up too many and becomes an electoral problem for the tories, but at moment they've still got a comfortable lead in the polls, and I can't see that changing unless the pandemic suddenly gets a lot worse or the economy collapses. Afghanistan looks bad on the news, but do most people give a shit? Not sure.

[steviewevie]

7 hours ago, Ommadawn said:

 

So no then.

yeah, well that is one luxury of being in opposition.