eFestivals Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, mattiloy said: See what happens? This is what you get when you elect a blairite dinosaur. it's what happens when the electorate has their say. You Corbynites loves to say what a champion of democracy he was (laughable, but never mind), yet you immediately forget that democracy is about people having a say - including the ones with different ideas to you. Yes, electorates can be morons but they're always the electorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 11 hours ago, topmarksbri said: The impression that I'd always got from family/friends involved in Labour since the 70s was that JC was boring soft touch lefty whereas McD was the real hardline bastard and a bit unpleasant to deal with. Funny how perceptions change, I know lots of soft left who were begging for McD to take over as he'd be more palatable to the electorate! You're talking about an emotive issue logically which doesn't really work, people hold all kinds of contradictory opinions. I also don't think it's that people see the troubles as the UK being morally right but that the terrorist actions of the IRA which killed British civilians as wrong. Yeah, I gotta say I was always pretty pro-John Mcd generally as I always thought he came across well on the Today prog, news, etc (though I'm one of those 'anyone but the Tories/I vote Labour' voters). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, eFestivals said: it's what happens when the electorate has their say. You Corbynites loves to say what a champion of democracy he was (laughable, but never mind), yet you immediately forget that democracy is about people having a say - including the ones with different ideas to you. Yes, electorates can be morons but they're always the electorate. People didnt really vote Biden though, they voted ’not trump’. Even so, biden campaigned for a decent federal minimum wage, so.... The centre are just too institutionalised, too in the pockets of corporate donors, too bollockless to achieve anything once in power. That is the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 2 minutes ago, mattiloy said: That is the problem. and very definitely not the people who'd force it on them against their will. 😛 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, Homer said: Yeah, I gotta say I was always pretty pro-John Mcd generally as I always thought he came across well on the Today prog, news, etc (though I'm one of those 'anyone but the Tories/I vote Labour' voters). I would have preferred John McDonnell as leader...he was better at doing media, more pragmatic, brighter...but some of his past stuff would have haunted him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 32 minutes ago, eFestivals said: and very definitely not the people who'd force it on them against their will. 😛 Force what on who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmarksbri Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 3 hours ago, mattiloy said: See what happens? This is what you get when you elect a blairite dinosaur. Lol at Biden being a Blairite - he's pretty traditional centre left Dem which existed years and years before Blair. Not every centrist politician you don't like is a Blairite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, mattiloy said: People didnt really vote Biden though, they voted ’not trump’. Even so, biden campaigned for a decent federal minimum wage, so.... The centre are just too institutionalised, too in the pockets of corporate donors, too bollockless to achieve anything once in power. That is the problem. What is the solution? Who would you have voted for to solve it? Edited February 26, 2021 by Homer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, mattiloy said: Force what on who? you don't seem to be able to accept that other views to your own have as much validity as your own, or that Biden was voted into place as part of a political process along with other people and not as King Of The World. Of course, it would be great to be that King Of The World and to create utopia. But there's other humans with as much validity as you and me in every part of every problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) Also, I don't speak for everyone on this thread, but am sure most of us would have voted for Bernie/did vote for Corbyn twice. Am more than happy to have a socialist government, what's the specific and realistic plan to get one ASAP? Edited February 26, 2021 by Homer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eFestivals Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 33 minutes ago, Homer said: Am more than happy to have a socialist government, what's the specific and realistic plan to get one ASAP? competent leadership, and a policy plan for a smallish number of achievable things. Battles that can be won, rather than utopia which can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haan Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Homer said: Am more than happy to have a socialist government, what's the specific and realistic plan to get one ASAP? I think we should all try to join a union and try and amplify and support socialist MP's (mainly those within the Socialist Campaign Group in Labour). I think ideally we would have loads of AOC types getting grassroots support by canvassing and working within their communities. In this regard I actually think the US is better equipped than us (although the US seems to be further right in general), the Justice Dems and DSA have a solid tactic and made some big gains recently, and I don't think we have anything comparable here (momentum? lol). From there if we could get a few single issue campaign groups started (getting rid of FPTP, Green New Deal) and hopefully then we will have implemented and seen the effects of some good socialist policies to move forward. Edited February 26, 2021 by Haan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haan Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 Just now, Haan said: I think we should all try to join a union and try and amplify and support socialist MP's (mainly those within the Socialist Campaign Group in Labour). I think ideally we would have loads of AOC types getting grassroots support by canvassing and working within their communities. In this regard I actually think the US is better equipped than us (although the US seems to be further right in general), the Justice Dems and DSA have a solid tactic and made some big gains recently, and I don't think we have anything comparable here (momentum? lol). From there if we could get a few single issue campaign groups started (getting rid of FPTP, Green New Deal) and hopefully then we will have implemented and seen the effects of some good socialist policies to move forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmarksbri Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 6 hours ago, Homer said: Also, I don't speak for everyone on this thread, but am sure most of us would have voted for Bernie/did vote for Corbyn twice. Am more than happy to have a socialist government, what's the specific and realistic plan to get one ASAP? For one drop socialist as part of the messaging - the general public hate the notion of socialism and think it's essentially turning the country into the soviet union. New Labour worked so well in terms of messaging because it seemed new and exciting and a different way of doing things (third way/triangulation I guess was kind of a new concept even if really it was just centrism, whatever that's a whole different argument). You need to present socialist ideas as moderate - that's what most people think they are. I actually think this is partly what JC did quite well in 2017 but it ran out of steam by 2019 and his brand was unbelievably toxic People don't really vote on policy or detail they vote on how they feel about candidates and parties. Campbell, Cummings, Lynton Crosby, Milne - these strategists are the people who really win (or lose in Milne's case) elections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 https://www.politics.co.uk/week-in-review/2021/02/26/week-in-review-labour-right-to-resist-a-rise-in-corporation-tax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topmarksbri Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 15 minutes ago, steviewevie said: https://www.politics.co.uk/week-in-review/2021/02/26/week-in-review-labour-right-to-resist-a-rise-in-corporation-tax I think the play here should have been - we should absolutely raise corporation tax but not until after the pandemic, once growth is back to roughly preCV19 levels we would do xyz. Show that you support corporation tax rises but this isn't the right time to do it and clearly display when the right time to do it would be. Also having a plan makes you look more economically literate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrshire Chris Posted February 26, 2021 Report Share Posted February 26, 2021 Spent some of the afternoon watching the snp tearing itself apart. Salmond strolled through the hearing, he obviously has more evidence. Quite simply it looks like sturgeon and her allies tried to frame him as he was threatening a comeback . All this shit when we should be concentrating on the pandemic. The Scottish Parliament, I prefer to call it the Shortbread Senate , needs to deal with this sleaze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted February 27, 2021 Report Share Posted February 27, 2021 Ah well. And even raising taxes is popular these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh69 Posted February 28, 2021 Report Share Posted February 28, 2021 👀 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steviewevie Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 Nice bit of state sponsered propaganda going on this morning... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattiloy Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 Not always a fan of Owen Jones but some good points in this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 A couple more constructive contributions here I see. This thread kind of makes me understand why all those people decided to indeed 'fuck off and join the tories' instead of voting for JC at the last election! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozanne Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 One thing for politics historians that I've learnt recently. Before the 1997 General Election, Tony Blair was in discussions with the Lib Dems about some form of coalition to keep the Tories out of No 10, the price of which would've been some for of electoral reform. However when it became clear the size of Blair's win, he realised that he wouldn't need to the Lib Dems and governed alone. Any talk of electoral reform evolved into the Jenkins Commission which looked into alternatives for voting in our electoral system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilgamesh69 Posted March 1, 2021 Report Share Posted March 1, 2021 32 minutes ago, Homer said: A couple more constructive contributions here I see. This thread kind of makes me understand why all those people decided to indeed 'fuck off and join the tories' instead of voting for JC at the last election! So you're saying hurt feelings means someone should go vote for the tories instead, which will no doubt cause a lot more harm to society than any downvoting and namecalling on the internet? 1 hour ago, mattiloy said: Not always a fan of Owen Jones but some good points in this Yeah but i'd like to see CorBIN do any better 🤬🤬🤬 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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