news & politics:discussion

[Ozanne]

42 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

no, I just mean tax is not going to raise the £30billion required, which is why Starmer saying only part of this will be funded by windfall taxes. And I meant similar to Sunak's £400 thing in that it benefits everyone, not just the poorest...that is what that bloke on Guardian was arguing. Guardian leader on other hand broadly praises it...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/aug/15/the-guardian-view-on-keir-starmers-bills-freeze-smart-politics-needs-smart-economics

I didn’t mean you per say just in general that’s what I’m getting, maybe that’s me though. I think it’s clear as day that the UK public are getting stitches up over this when you look at other countries  

Sunak’s help wouldn’t have helped anyone really, it barely did anything. 

[lost]

France has 56 nuclear power stations, the UK has 8. France is cheaper currently because nukes are cheaper than fossil fuels at todays prices. EDF was nationalised because of huge losses when fossil fuels were cheaper than nukes so needs to be subsidised by the tax payer during the bear markets but should be fine this winter.

Germany are shutting down their nukes on top of having their gas cut off by the Russians, their energy prices maybe so bad this winter that they could have to chose between de-industrialising and dismantling their economy or blocking nato supply lines to Ukraine (which would also block them to Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia)

The UK will probably be somewhere in the middle of those two scenarios.

Edited August 16, 2022 by lost

[Ozanne]

Still paying way more though than those countries aren’t we.

[lost]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Still paying way more though than those countries aren’t we.

Nope Germany has the most expensive in Europe.

[steviewevie]

25 minutes ago, lost said:

France has 56 nuclear power stations, the UK has 8. France is cheaper currently because nukes are cheaper than fossil fuels at todays prices. EDF was nationalised because of huge losses when fossil fuels were cheaper than nukes so needs to be subsidised by the tax payer during the bear markets but should be fine this winter.

Germany are shutting down their nukes on top of having their gas cut off by the Russians, their energy prices maybe so bad this winter that they could have to chose between de-industrialising and dismantling their economy or blocking nato supply lines to Ukraine (which would also block them to Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia)

The UK will probably be somewhere in the middle of those two scenarios.

Don't Germany have massive gas storage facilities which they are filling ready for winter, plus new LNG supplies, and europe is getting more gas from elsewhere, places like Algeria?

[lost]

2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Don't Germany have massive gas storage facilities which they are filling ready for winter, plus new LNG supplies, and europe is getting more gas from elsewhere, places like Algeria?

Yep Qatar and the US also building new LNG infrastructure to supply Europe. It'll sort itself out eventually, as they say there is no better cure for high prices than high prices.

Edited August 16, 2022 by lost

[Ozanne]

33 minutes ago, lost said:

Nope Germany has the most expensive in Europe.

https://www.ft.com/content/c97ae23f-f30e-45ac-b322-cfb58a3b918a
 

This article indicates otherwise.

[lost]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

https://www.ft.com/content/c97ae23f-f30e-45ac-b322-cfb58a3b918a
 

This article indicates otherwise.

No it doesn't

[steviewevie]

30 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

https://www.ft.com/content/c97ae23f-f30e-45ac-b322-cfb58a3b918a
 

This article indicates otherwise.

behind a paywall.

[lost]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

behind a paywall.

Just seems to mention help certain countries are giving to their citizens

Try this: https://www.electricrate.com/data-center/electricity-prices-by-country/

Germany 39c per kwh vs UK 27c per kwh

[steviewevie]

6 minutes ago, lost said:

Just seems to mention help certain countries are giving to their citizens

Try this: https://www.electricrate.com/data-center/electricity-prices-by-country/

Germany 39c per kwh vs UK 27c per kwh

Ok, but the help is key, right? because that determines how much net consumers are paying.

[steviewevie]

Larry Elliott's take on Labour's energy price freeze plan...again maybe better politically than economically...

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2022/aug/15/labour-energy-bill-freeze-political-economics-price

[lost]

4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Ok, but the help is key, right? because that determines how much net consumers are paying.

The link says they've cut income tax so gone the Liz Truss route.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, lost said:

The link says they've cut income tax so gone the Liz Truss route.

I don't know about that, but this was reported yesterday...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62554464

[steviewevie]

and this looks at how different european countries are dealing with it...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61522123

[Neil]

1 hour ago, lost said:

Nope Germany has the most expensive in Europe.

my bruv lives in Germany he has oil as his alternative to gas.

[Ozanne]

1 hour ago, lost said:

No it doesn't

It shows rising costs are more painful in the UK compared to Germany as a % of average consumption.

https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2022/08/energy-bills-rising-high-faster-uk

This also shows electricity is most costly in the UK compared to Germany.

[lost]

5 minutes ago, Neil said:

my bruv lives in Germany he has oil as his alternative to gas.

Yes I've family in Germany too. Poland as well where interest rates have gone from 0.5% to 6.5% so they all have huge mortgage payments to deal with on top of these energy prices when they were starting off with lower wages too.

[lost]

18 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It shows rising costs are more painful in the UK compared to Germany as a % of average consumption.

https://www.newstatesman.com/business/2022/08/energy-bills-rising-high-faster-uk

This also shows electricity is most costly in the UK compared to Germany.

That's not what you said though. You said highest in Europe. i simply pointed out that was wrong. As the link said Germany 39c per kwh vs UK 27c per kwh at current prices.

56% of Germans live in apartments more likely to be heated by electricity whilst its 18% of Brits. So yes a relative rise in gas heating costs which were much cheaper before the gas price rose is going to be higher in the uk. Still wouldn't swap my gas central heating though. 

Basically our energy companies supplied energy much cheaper before and the price rise matches the gas price rise caused by Russia either that or they've suddenly decided to become "greedy" in the last couple of months.

Edited August 16, 2022 by lost

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, lost said:

France has 56 nuclear power stations, the UK has 8. France is cheaper currently because nukes are cheaper than fossil fuels at todays prices. EDF was nationalised because of huge losses when fossil fuels were cheaper than nukes so needs to be subsidised by the tax payer during the bear markets but should be fine this winter.

Germany are shutting down their nukes on top of having their gas cut off by the Russians, their energy prices maybe so bad this winter that they could have to chose between de-industrialising and dismantling their economy or blocking nato supply lines to Ukraine (which would also block them to Poland, Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia)

The UK will probably be somewhere in the middle of those two scenarios.

 

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

Still paying way more though than those countries aren’t we.

I didn’t say the UK was the highest in Europe. You mentioned France and Germany and I said we are paying more than those countries

The 2nd article has this graph in it which shows our energy bills are rising faster with the exception of France. The French are protected from this due to the French government taking that burden through their cap. 

[lost]

13 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

I didn’t say the UK was the highest in Europe. You mentioned France and Germany and I said we are paying more than those countries

The 2nd article has this graph in it which shows our energy bills are rising faster with the exception of France. The French are protected from this due to the French government taking that burden through their cap. 

The French have nukes as I said and yes its due to the gas price not "greedy energy companies" Haven't you just managed to disprove your own argument?

the gas price is rising due to Russian gas being taken off the European market not because energy companies have decided to become greedy.

Also to add those UK figures look bollocks unless they have somehow picked an instant when there was no wind and so a surge in pricing.

Edited August 16, 2022 by lost

[Neil]

56 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

This also shows electricity is most costly in the UK compared to Germany.

that's probably more to do with the exact situation at the moment because the generating sector is shrinking (closing the nukes), than any brilliant management.

[lost]

price cap is currently about £280mwh isn't it? Energy companies would be haemorrhaging money if they are paying what the new statesman says.

Edited August 16, 2022 by lost

[Ozanne]

40 minutes ago, lost said:

The French have nukes as I said and yes its due to the gas price not "greedy energy companies" Haven't you just managed to disprove your own argument?

the gas price is rising due to Russian gas being taken off the European market not because energy companies have decided to become greedy.

Also to add those UK figures look bollocks unless they have somehow picked an instant when there was no wind and so a surge in pricing.

I never said the UK was the highest in Europe. The 2 articles I’ve provided at least show the UK pays more for energy bills than Germany.

We are paying an extortionate amount for bills because the energy companies are greedy just take a look at the profits posted. The energy firms should take the hit rather than us. I’m quite surprised someone would want to defend the big energy firms.

[lost]

3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

I never said the UK was the highest in Europe. The 2 articles I’ve provided at least show the UK pays more for energy bills than Germany.

We are paying an extortionate amount for bills because the energy companies are greedy just take a look at the profits posted. The energy firms should take the hit rather than us. I’m quite surprised someone would want to defend the big energy firms.

You've posted a price which is way above the energy cap and said that proves they are greedy? They are greedy by selling us energy below cost?