news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

That’s the thing isn’t it, it’s not the Russian people it’s their government. I’m glad they are doing ok and I hope it stays that way. 

I listened to bit of latest bbc ukrainecast this morning and they were talking to someone in Moscow who was saying that life is pretty normal there...and on state tv news they are showing people being liberated from the horrid nationalists in parts of Ukraine, and it's all very positive. You can still see videos of what is actually happening (from ukrainian/western point of view) on social media, but many videos are either blocked or very slow, but some people see this stuff using vpns. I'm sure many Russians would be appalled, especially if Kyiv gets battered, but they just don't know about it. And even then, what can they do? Protestors can get put in jail for years.

Edited March 1, 2022 by steviewevie

[steviewevie]

with US not wanting to get involved, which is fair enough I guess...maybe the idea of an EU army isn't such a bad one after all.

[gigpusher]

16 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Can the people just wash their hands like that?  I don't think so...

You have to stand up and be counted at certain points in your life.  

Some are I've seen some bravery from Russian people but it's a very different situation in Russia. None of the Russians I work with ever talk politics. I'll happily joke about Boris and what a shit show our government is. They never even answer. The consequences for them are much more serious. Almost all Russian voices I have heard are saying they know there will be consequences for saying what they think. The closest any of our team have gotten to even mentioning the situation is saying we woke up today to something that none of us wanted or hoped for. 

[steviewevie]

 

[gigpusher]

14 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

I understand all that.  The thing is though I carry the responsibility of what my government does.  I voted for Blairs government and what went on in Iraq.  Its the suggestion that the people can just say its nothing to do with me that annoys me a bit.  If I am not prepared to stand up and take the fight directly to people acting in my name then I partly carry the burden of what they do.

The people of Ukraine have little choice right now to fight the very people the Russian people won't.  You have to own that a bit.  I have no doubt a lot of Russian people are pro what is going on.

Yes but we live in something closer to a real democracy (albeit still not a full democracy) There's talk of rigged elections in Russia all the time so it is much closer to a dictatorship. We hear people complaining about the impartiality of the BC but Russian television does not have anything critical about the Russian government. 

This is an interesting article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/01/young-russians-putin-digging-his-own-grave-ukraine-sanctions?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[Ozanne]

 

[gigpusher]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60569292  Some positive news but as always heartless tories just bowing to public pressure. 

[Ozanne]

1 minute ago, gigpusher said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60569292  Some positive news but as always heartless tories just bowing to public pressure. 

It’s so sad they have to be dragged kicking and screaming into the right moves. 

[steviewevie]

 

[Ozanne]

21 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

 

Good on her for owning it and explaining the situation. She’s not wrong about the 2nd part. 

[steviewevie]

Fuck's sake.

 

[Copperface]

18 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Good on her for owning it and explaining the situation. She’s not wrong about the 2nd part. 

She's talking shite as normal. Russia invaded Ukraine over eight years ago. She and her fellow nutters signed that letter while the military build up was underway. She is being disingenuous but not new for her. Webbe and Corbyn did not withdraw their names as independents - the Labour signatories only did so in order not to have the whip withdrawn.

[steviewevie]

 

[Zoo Music Girl]

2 hours ago, steviewevie said:

 

Just saw this clip. He looks so out of his depth.

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Just saw this clip. He looks so out of his depth.

he does...but to be fair to him it is kind of difficult...to say you're supportive of Ukraine, but won't help them fight the Russians by actually engaging...and it could get a lot more difficult if Russia up the ante by bombing Kyiv into submission.

[steviewevie]

 

[Ozanne]

23 minutes ago, Zoo Music Girl said:

Just saw this clip. He looks so out of his depth.

He is massively out of his depth. It looks even more obvious when he’s up against his own Ministers too, take Ben Wallace for example who generally speaking has been pretty good through all this. 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

 

[steviewevie]

So ideally the russian advance stops due to a mix of Ukrainian resistance and low russian morale, but this is probably unlikely. Or someone overthrows Putin soon due to all of the sanctions etc. again unlikely. Or NATO steps in to directly engage with Russia, very unlikely I think. Or most likely Russia keeps going and fights and bombs ukraine until they surrender, which could be prolonged and mean a lot of death and destruction.

Some times I think maybe it's best for Ukraine to surrender now...and then see what can be negotiated.

[Copperface]

22 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

So ideally the russian advance stops due to a mix of Ukrainian resistance and low russian morale, but this is probably unlikely. Or someone overthrows Putin soon due to all of the sanctions etc. again unlikely. Or NATO steps in to directly engage with Russia, very unlikely I think. Or most likely Russia keeps going and fights and bombs ukraine until they surrender, which could be prolonged and mean a lot of death and destruction.

Some times I think maybe it's best for Ukraine to surrender now...and then see what can be negotiated.

Looks more like a land grab from the east up to the Dnieper, splt the country in two, and take the southern coast up to Odesa. Ukraine fractured but long term occupation of more than the eastern oblasts seems improbable to me. They cant sustain that militarily, let alone in conjunction with sanctions. They've gone further than I thought they would but this is about to get really nasty now, with huge risk of escalation once images start coming in of what is taking place. No idea at all about how this'll be resolved.

Got to start thinking right, sod it.....immediate admission of Finland and Sweden to NATO, massive reinforcement along every NATO state border, especially the Baltic states, total isolation of the Kaliningrad enclave, crush Russia economically and reputationally, isolate every aspect of Russian life where we can, keep the pressure on and don't let up. If Putin gets away with this he'll bide time then try the same tactics in the above areas.

Putin only understands strength and looks to exploit weakness.  For those who think this will escalate things, this doesn't get any more serious than where we are now. 

[Hannibal Schmitt]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

 

he should be better "denazifying" his own people. American Media was reporting yesterday that he sent his Wagner Group to kiev now. Their ideology seems to be rather clear as they like to use Nazi-Symbols, even on their uniforms.

[Ozanne]

 

[steviewevie]

2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

 

yeah, I didn't know much about Ukrainian history until all this stuff...and the recent excellent Rise of the Nazis, Dictators at War doc on BBC...and what Germany did in Ukraine in WW2 as they moved through to try and take Russia was absolutely terrible. The orders came from the top...no mercy, kill all jews, and they killed a lot of non jews too. No wonder this is all so raw for Ukrainians.

Here's the doc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00084td

 

 

[Hannibal Schmitt]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

yeah, I didn't know much about Ukrainian history until all this stuff...and the recent excellent Rise of the Nazis, Dictators at War doc on BBC...and what Germany did in Ukraine in WW2 as they moved through to try and take Russia was absolutely terrible. The orders came from the top...no mercy, kill all jews, and they killed a lot of non jews too. No wonder this is all so raw for Ukrainians.

Here's the doc.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00084td

 

 

I love these docs, especially from the bbc, as I studied history in Austria, thanks very much.