news & politics:discussion

[Ryan1984]

8 hours ago, steviewevie said:

Time are changing...in that we have a right wing government that are enacting policies that they know are popular... more police powers, stricter rules on asylum seekers so they get deported more easily, cutting foreign aid etc etc To be honest I'm worried which way this country is going post brexit. I guess you're hoping for some grassroots movement from the left to rise up and save us...feels like something coming from the extreme right is just as or more likely. You don't have to go far on social media to find outright racism and nationalism, there's a lot of it about.

This is correct. I pulled up someone for saying something racist on another forum and was told ‘people like you make me sick’ and that I ‘didn’t understand the bigger picture’. I politely asked them to explain what their ‘bigger picture’ is and they refused to answer... They also got angry when someone else asked them to stop referring to black people as ‘coloured’. So many with these views are around.

[DeanoL]

17 hours ago, eFestivals said:

I've not been kidding myself that the electorate are left wing.

That's fair enough. But you've also said Labour need to stop telling the electorate that they're wrong and give them what they want. Which you acknowledge is right-wing policies?

I'm confused what you think Labour should be doing here? Lurching massively to the right would certainly boost their chances of being elected, but then you still have a right-wing government. And I know you don't buy into the nonsense that Labour are any less corrupt or more competent than the Tories, so it's not like it's even "right wing policy but not as shit".

Bait and switch? Just lie that we're going to deport all foreign people then when we get in go "nah" and set the top tax rate to 90% instead?

[steviewevie]

7 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

 

Lurching massively to the right would certainly boost their chances of being elected

not sure it would...tories have got that space. There are still a lot of people on the left economically, and liberal on the social stuff...and they need a voice. Trouble is that is split between labour, lib dems, greens, snp, plaid cymru etc

[mattiloy]

12 hours ago, Ozanne said:

What do you think of David Lammy?

I listened to him on LBC the other day and he’s quite a likeable guy. Doesnt seem so left historically mind. Quite prominent in new labour, bit of a transatlantic partnership/war hawk guy for me. But I guess you dont know how much is just politic and he does seem fairly pragmatic and wiley as a politician so you never know. And being a real pragmatist, he could have done a better job than Starmer on stitching up the factions in the party post Corbyn.

One thing he is not pragmatic on is the EU though. He is an arch remainer and has been fairly rabid in times gone by. Idk how that would play out with the public.

[steviewevie]

12 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I listened to him on LBC the other day and he’s quite a likeable guy. Doesnt seem so left historically mind. Quite prominent in new labour, bit of a transatlantic partnership/war hawk guy for me. But I guess you dont know how much is just politic and he does seem fairly pragmatic and wiley as a politician so you never know. And being a real pragmatist, he could have done a better job than Starmer on stitching up the factions in the party post Corbyn.

One thing he is not pragmatic on is the EU though. He is an arch remainer and has been fairly rabid in times gone by. Idk how that would play out with the public.

a majority of labour support were, and still are remainers.

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

a majority of labour support were, and still are remainers.

On a constituency level remain majority and labour majority are highly correlated. Most of the seats labour has to win in, they have to win votes from brexit voters.

If it must be someone from the other side of the party, Nandy is a better choice than Lammy. And Starmer. And thats why I voted for her.

But its academic- Starmer can’t be fired because only the right of the party (most of the PLP) have the power to force him out, but if they do, the membership will vote for the left wing candidate. Unless they purge half the membership and change the rules for the leadership contest... which is plausible to be fair

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

On a constituency level remain majority and labour majority are highly correlated. Most of the seats labour has to win in, they have to win votes from brexit voters.

If it must be someone from the other side of the party, Nandy is a better choice than Lammy. And Starmer. And thats why I voted for her.

But its academic- Starmer can’t be fired because only the right of the party (most of the PLP) have the power to force him out, but if they do, the membership will vote for the left wing candidate. Unless they purge half the membership and change the rules for the leadership contest... which is plausible to be fair

What left wing candidate would that be? Starmer won convincingly less than a year ago. RLB was nowhere near and that's the best the left could come up with. Who has popped up in the last year who would go for it and could win?

[eFestivals]

41 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

That's fair enough. But you've also said Labour need to stop telling the electorate that they're wrong and give them what they want. Which you acknowledge is right-wing policies?

I'm confused what you think Labour should be doing here? Lurching massively to the right would certainly boost their chances of being elected, but then you still have a right-wing government. And I know you don't buy into the nonsense that Labour are any less corrupt or more competent than the Tories, so it's not like it's even "right wing policy but not as shit".

A winning party connects with the electorate which is about more than policies

41 minutes ago, DeanoL said:

Bait and switch? Just lie that we're going to deport all foreign people then when we get in go "nah" and set the top tax rate to 90% instead?

 

[Ozanne]

35 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

I listened to him on LBC the other day and he’s quite a likeable guy. Doesnt seem so left historically mind. Quite prominent in new labour, bit of a transatlantic partnership/war hawk guy for me. But I guess you dont know how much is just politic and he does seem fairly pragmatic and wiley as a politician so you never know. And being a real pragmatist, he could have done a better job than Starmer on stitching up the factions in the party post Corbyn.

One thing he is not pragmatic on is the EU though. He is an arch remainer and has been fairly rabid in times gone by. Idk how that would play out with the public.

I first noticed him when he was giving his famous Brexit speech in the Commons a couple of years ago. I think he comes across very well and seems to be able to articulate his point in a way that can bring you on side. But yes as you say he is a remainer so that might be an issue for some voters if it even still matters in the future. 
 

He has been on LBC this morning tearing into the race review findings so he’s getting lots of screen time and mostly all of it is positive. I could see him running in a future leadership contest. 

[mattiloy]

4 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

What left wing candidate would that be? Starmer won convincingly less than a year ago. RLB was nowhere near and that's the best the left could come up with. Who has popped up in the last year who would go for it and could win?

He won running on a left wing ticket. The membership wouldn’t be fooled again. I reckon Dan Carden would be upto it. But tbh it doesn’t really matter who the left wing candidate is, Starmer’s betrayal will loom in the mind, you can only trust one of your own.

[steviewevie]

11 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

On a constituency level remain majority and labour majority are highly correlated. Most of the seats labour has to win in, they have to win votes from brexit voters.

 

but then they might end up losing seats elsewhere by trying to appease brexit voters who may never go back to labour anyway, they've found a new hero in Johnson.

[steviewevie]

13 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

But its academic- Starmer can’t be fired because only the right of the party (most of the PLP) have the power to force him out, but if they do, the membership will vote for the left wing candidate. Unless they purge half the membership and change the rules for the leadership contest... which is plausible to be fair

hasn't there been a bit of a churn of membership...people who joined to vote against Long Bailey, and then those that have left because of Starmer and Corbyn...?

[steviewevie]

interesting thread on this racism report...

 

[mattiloy]

3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

hasn't there been a bit of a churn of membership...people who joined to vote against Long Bailey, and then those that have left because of Starmer and Corbyn...?

Yes, I said as much, if the purges have driven out enough, it could be stitched up by the right. Probs still a big chunk of dyed in the wool lefty lifers though and nothing to stop folk rejoining if a leadership election was mooted though.

[steviewevie]

I think Starmer needs more time...he hasn't had a chance to set out labour's vision or what could be in a manifesto, and nor would he be expected to, especially with this pandemic engulfing everything. The government is bound to do well off the back of the vaccine rollout and the gradual unlocking....but it's what comes after...this will be when labour might have a chance.

[eFestivals]

13 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Brexit won't factor in the next election unless Labour make it an issue - and if they do they have no chance.  

I agrree I don't see any appetite to go round that loop again.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I agrree I don't see any appetite to go round that loop again.

tories might want to keep it as an issue, it works well for them...there are still negotiations going on now, despite brexit apparently being done. Starmer doesn't ever mention brexit, there's a reason for that.

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, steviewevie said:

tories might want to keep it as an issue, it works well for them...there are still negotiations going on now, despite brexit apparently being done. Starmer doesn't ever mention brexit, there's a reason for that.

There's a bit of milage to point out what stuck-up it's been but needs fdoing carefully so it doesn't sound like the electorate had no right to want it.

[eFestivals]

5 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

People won't care about Brexit in four years time...

It will be the state of the economy (recovery) and debt...   Tories will take a lot of pain if we are still struggling at that point.  They will ditch Johnson before the election if things aren't rosey.

Debt is leacreducin issue lots of debts have been paid off while people can't spend in the pub or other places

[eFestivals]

Just now, Barry Fish said:

National debt I meant...  How well we recover from Covid will factor into the next election I am thinking.

What you really mean are tax rises or spending cuts.

[DeanoL]

41 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

A winning party connects with the electorate which is about more than policies

Yep - and part of that is winning people around to your point of view.

You're right that you can't just call people racist and bigots and they need to stop doing that and vote for you. But you can try and show them how they're wrong. Which is what David Lammy was doing in that video that sparked all this - I'd be fascinated to know how you think she should have handled it, and how he could have better connected with the woman?

[eFestivals]

1 minute ago, DeanoL said:

Yep - and part of that is winning people around to your point of view.

You're right that you can't just call people racist and bigots and they need to stop doing that and vote for you. But you can try and show them how they're wrong. Which is what David Lammy was doing in that video that sparked all this - I'd be fascinated to know how you think she should have handled it, and how he could have better connected with the woman?

Theresa disconnect created via the idea of black issues of being different to issues other people have.so the focus needs to be on better opportunities for the marginised of all communities.

[Haan]

1 hour ago, steviewevie said:

interesting thread on this racism report...

 

The report is crazy: 

 

I think it will be very telling that this report will get all kinds of media coverage whereas the Windrush Review, Lammy Review, Parker Review and a few others in recent times which all stated that the UK does have institutional racism will be ignored. 

[Haan]

 

 

[eFestivals]

12 minutes ago, Haan said:

The report is crazy: 

 

I think it will be very telling that this report will get all kinds of media coverage whereas the Windrush Review, Lammy Review, Parker Review and a few others in recent times which all stated that the UK does have institutional racism will be ignored. 

The other side of that is whities feeling an even bigger failure if they don't have big success in a system so stacked in their favour.