news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

15 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

If he's not going to win the next GE then it's the discussion that needs to be had. No matter how uncomfortable it is.

I think have to see how things go over the winter and next year, if things continue to be shit and there are no clear signs of any levelling up starting then this could hurt tories. I think Starmer needs more of a chance, and maybe as Ozanne says the constant questioning of his leadership just sets labour up to fail.

[Ozanne]

Exactly, get behind the Party, promote the message, highlight the many mistakes the Tories are making and it might make a difference. The near constant attacks from within won’t win people around to Labour and give more chance of the Tories winning a majority at the next GE.

Of course if someone supports the Tories then fair enough, they probably wouldn’t do this 😆

[squirrelarmy]

People dreaming of a left wing government are in fantasy land. The vast majority of the electorate just don’t swing that way. 
 

A question for the Corbynites. Do you think the country would magically turn left wing in the highly unlikely event he was elected PM?

 

Unfortunately the vast majority of the voters in this country are your typical tabloid reading middle englanders. 
 

Labour has to appeal to them to get their votes to gain power. Starmer isn’t the left wing hero some of you want. You need to get over that and get behind him and the party even if they don’t seem as left wing as you think they should be. 
 

Otherwise we’re stuck with the Tory corruption

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

I’m not bemoaning the public, I’m commenting on the system as a whole that allows the Tories to do whatever they want and get away with it.

IDS and William Hague were up against a strong government that only really made 1 big mistake in 11 years. It’s not really comparable compared to the easy ride the Tories get when they have made about 5 big mistakes in 18 months alone.

The Tories really do play politics on easy mode. 

The system doesn't help the Tories inherently, the Tories have been better at using the system to their advantage over the last decade, if Labour is to regain power they need to be better at connecting with voters. Whining about the system not being fair won't do that.

When you say the Tories have made 5 big mistakes in 18 months what do you mean? There are two big issues in the past 18 months: COVID and Brexit.

With COVID most of the public has been pretty lenient on the government as they where dealing with a situation unlike any in our lifetimes, yes there have been mistakes but few that everyone saw coming so it's hard to get too worked up about it. There is of course the giving loads of money to your mates issue, but in general the public think all politicians are bastards so they don't really see that as a party issue.

With Brexit most of the public voted for it so just saying it's a terrible idea doesn't convince. Labour needed to set out what a Labour Brexit would have looked like, how it protected things the Brexit voters wanted "sovereignty" or whatever but also didn't lead to some of the problems we are seeing now. Until Labour become a voice for a positive version of Brexit not just complaining about it they won't win back Brexit voters.

Other than those two issues where you seem to be out of step with the population at large where is the huge cataclysmic fuck up that everyone is ignoring? Afghanistan? Essentially the US's problem. Gas crisis? Prisicesly why we have the price cap to protect households. Social care? A time bomb that is very much getting worse on the Tories watch but they have at least made some sop to raising taxes despite howls of despair from their own backbenches.

The Tories are shits and life for many people gets harder under their rule whilst those at the top get richer but the idea that they have crashed the bus is just wrong for most people. Until you understand that you will never win the argument.

[SwedgeAntilles]

2 hours ago, squirrelarmy said:

People dreaming of a left wing government are in fantasy land. The vast majority of the electorate just don’t swing that way. 
 

A question for the Corbynites. Do you think the country would magically turn left wing in the highly unlikely event he was elected PM?

 

Unfortunately the vast majority of the voters in this country are your typical tabloid reading middle englanders. 
 

Labour has to appeal to them to get their votes to gain power. Starmer isn’t the left wing hero some of you want. You need to get over that and get behind him and the party even if they don’t seem as left wing as you think they should be. 
 

Otherwise we’re stuck with the Tory corruption

What are you basing this on? Checking recent polling the Tories and other right-wing parties (i.e. UKIP and Reform) are still under 50% combined (40+3+4). Whereas progressive parties (not necessarily left-wing, but certainly all considerably to the left of the current Tory govenment; Labour, LDs, Greens, SNP and PC) are on 53% - https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

Add to that that 66% of people think that the NHS should be funded by the government based on taxation, and 70% believe it's the sector that the gov should spend more money on (dwarfing the likes of Defence, Crime and Policing and Pensions. 62% of people support (or strongly support) the nationalisation of the railways. The majority of Brits want a progressive goverment.

That's what Starmer SHOULD have been doing, but he hasn't. He's gone to war with the left of the party on some terrible advice of those around him. He isn't connecting with the electorate and he isn't building coalitions with the other prgoressive parties.

I'm not a Corbynite. Did I like him? Yes. Did I vote for him? No. I'm not sure why Starmer supporters keep bringing him up. It's time to move on and deal with the situation facing you today. Thinking that all Starmer critics are just scorned Corbynistas may help you ignore the obvious regarding his successor but ultimately it's futile if your aim is, as you say, to get rid of the Tories.

[Ozanne]

2 hours ago, mcshed said:

The system doesn't help the Tories inherently, the Tories have been better at using the system to their advantage over the last decade, if Labour is to regain power they need to be better at connecting with voters. Whining about the system not being fair won't do that.

When you say the Tories have made 5 big mistakes in 18 months what do you mean? There are two big issues in the past 18 months: COVID and Brexit.

With COVID most of the public has been pretty lenient on the government as they where dealing with a situation unlike any in our lifetimes, yes there have been mistakes but few that everyone saw coming so it's hard to get too worked up about it. There is of course the giving loads of money to your mates issue, but in general the public think all politicians are bastards so they don't really see that as a party issue.

With Brexit most of the public voted for it so just saying it's a terrible idea doesn't convince. Labour needed to set out what a Labour Brexit would have looked like, how it protected things the Brexit voters wanted "sovereignty" or whatever but also didn't lead to some of the problems we are seeing now. Until Labour become a voice for a positive version of Brexit not just complaining about it they won't win back Brexit voters.

Other than those two issues where you seem to be out of step with the population at large where is the huge cataclysmic fuck up that everyone is ignoring? Afghanistan? Essentially the US's problem. Gas crisis? Prisicesly why we have the price cap to protect households. Social care? A time bomb that is very much getting worse on the Tories watch but they have at least made some sop to raising taxes despite howls of despair from their own backbenches.

The Tories are shits and life for many people gets harder under their rule whilst those at the top get richer but the idea that they have crashed the bus is just wrong for most people. Until you understand that you will never win the argument.

You’ve kinda proved my point to be honest. 

[Leyrulion]

5 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I’m not bemoaning the public, I’m commenting on the system as a whole that allows the Tories to do whatever they want and get away with it.

IDS and William Hague were up against a strong government that only really made 1 big mistake in 11 years. It’s not really comparable compared to the easy ride the Tories get when they have made about 5 big mistakes in 18 months alone.

The Tories really do play politics on easy mode. 

1 big mistake in 11 years?

PFI

Immigration- (and I mean not putting controls on eastern European migration like Germany and France did in 2004. Even Jack straw said it was a mistake. Arguably it laid the ground which right wing Brexit supporting groups exploited)

ID Cards

Tuition fees

Losing the data of 25 million people claiming child benefit (in the post!)

A whole series of dodgy funding scandal (e.g. Bernie eccleston)

That's before you get onto critique of the effectiveness, or not, of parts of its government programme.

The labour government did a lot of great things but let's not pretend it was faultless domestically.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Leyrulion

[Ozanne]

52 minutes ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

I'm not a Corbynite. Did I like him? Yes. Did I vote for him? No. I'm not sure why Starmer supporters keep bringing him up. It's time to move on and deal with the situation facing you today. Thinking that all Starmer critics are just scorned Corbynistas may help you ignore the obvious regarding his successor but ultimately it's futile if your aim is, as you say, to get rid of the Tories.

I don’t see much of that going on in here? It does go on in the wider discussion online but generally speaking there isn’t a huge amount of Corbyn chat. 

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

You’ve kinda proved my point to be honest. 

Constructive point.

Have you ever done any canvassing for the Labour Party? Actually speaking to voters and listening to what they say? Outside of young left leaning types the public don't think this government or the previous Tory administrations have been a disaster. People have their gripes and they can be convinced of a better way forward but not by acting like the sky is falling down when it isn't.

[JoeyT]

Absolutely shocking. Hope he makes a full recovery.

 

[steviewevie]

4 minutes ago, JoeyT said:

Absolutely shocking. Hope he makes a full recovery.

 

bloody hec, that's terrible.

[SwedgeAntilles]

Absolutely horrific. 

[the wonderwhy]

19 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Wonder what Rayner is thinking...    

Here you go 

[SwedgeAntilles]

Confirmed now thats he's died. Truly horrible stuff. 

[steviewevie]

Looks like he's died. Fucking hell, what a country.

[steviewevie]

So much hate out there for politicians, but all this guy was doing was talking to his constituents.

[fraybentos1]

Utterly horrific. This plus Jo Cox I wonder if surgeries will be changed to remote from now on

[fraybentos1]

1 hour ago, mcshed said:

Constructive point.

Have you ever done any canvassing for the Labour Party? Actually speaking to voters and listening to what they say? 

Of course he doesn't. He's more a Starmer fan boy than a Labour supporter.

[steviewevie]

I guess MPs are going to need armed guards.

[Zoo Music Girl]

Man fuck this country seriously.

[Ozanne]

What horrible news 😔

[maelzoid]

Obviously horrible news.

But I think pointing the finger at Rayner is not only unfair to her, but also serves to help silence critics of the Tories. Don't forget that over the years, BJ's words have been far worse in terms of racism, homophobia etc. and have certainly been as divisive as anything any other politician is responsible for.

If an atmosphere of division contributed to this horrible event (and we don't know that it did) then a great number of people, politicians and otherwise, left-and right-leaning, have helped us get there. I think singling out any individual for that is disingenuous.

[mattiloy]

My moneys on a domestic dispute, love rival or something. Or a mad man.

If it does have something to do with politics, just based on his own politics, i’d say it’d more likely be some centrist FBPE loon than a Corbynite 

[CaledonianGonzo]

1 minute ago, Barry Fish said:

Really annoying when loads of people set up camp in front of the main stage flying their red flags.

You were the first one to point a finger.

[steviewevie]

We don't know the reason, but there's no doubt there is a lot of nasty hate and division out there, amplified by social media, and all political leaders no matter their stripes should be careful of the language they use, and that includes calling tories scum.