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1 minute ago, Ozanne said:

People wanted policies, Starmer/Labour outlined policies. Johnson just says vague rhetoric and apparently that’s better now? The goalposts get shifted all the time for Labour.

Johnson offered next to nothing in that speech and deserves to be called out for doing that in the exact same way Starmer would be. 

Yeah, well that's the downside for Starmer being a new leader and labour being in forever opposition, and the advantage Johnson has as he really reigns supreme at the moment. He doesn't need to set out any new policies, his whole thing is levelling up, build back better etc in a post brexit and now post pandemic world. He is asking people to stick with him on our journey to the sunlit uplands, so I reckon he's safe for a while longer, anything shit can be blamed on the EU or covid or immigration or china or even a necessary adjustment while the economy adjusts...but eventually he'll come undone if everything is shit in a few years time.  

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2 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, well that's the downside for Starmer being a new leader and labour being in forever opposition, and the advantage Johnson has as he really reigns supreme at the moment. He doesn't need to set out any new policies, his whole thing is levelling up, build back better etc in a post brexit and now post pandemic world. He is asking people to stick with him on our journey to the sunlit uplands, so I reckon he's safe for a while longer, anything shit can be blamed on the EU or covid or immigration or china or even a necessary adjustment while the economy adjusts...but eventually he'll come undone if everything is shit in a few years time.  

I fear you are spot on with your summary.

The fact that the tories are ahead of Labour at this time is just unbelievable. If voters are still with them now, what will it take to make them shift.

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3 minutes ago, not worthy said:

I fear you are spot on with your summary.

The fact that the tories are ahead of Labour at this time is just unbelievable. If voters are still with them now, what will it take to make them shift.

Yeah, it's really hard for labour. They've lost scotland, tory get unionist vote up there; and now they've lost large parts of N England. They need to win all that back, and then win a load more on top. The only thing that will topple tories I reckon is the economy collapses due to their mismanagement, which is probably unlikely.

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30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, well that's the downside for Starmer being a new leader and labour being in forever opposition, and the advantage Johnson has as he really reigns supreme at the moment. He doesn't need to set out any new policies, his whole thing is levelling up, build back better etc in a post brexit and now post pandemic world. He is asking people to stick with him on our journey to the sunlit uplands, so I reckon he's safe for a while longer, anything shit can be blamed on the EU or covid or immigration or china or even a necessary adjustment while the economy adjusts...but eventually he'll come undone if everything is shit in a few years time.  

That’s the benefit of many in this country giving Tories much more slack than Labour. You did it yourself just now, happy to give Johnson slack for nonsense in his speech but bashed Starmer for talking about his Dad. With double standards like this in our country there’s no wonder we turn out Tory governments all the time. 

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54 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Yeah, but Johnson has managed to make it look like a new type of tory govt, different to previous ones. No detailed policies, he doesn't need to, but lots of optimism how things will be in his shiny new low immigration, high wage, low tax country with lots of green/tech jobs etc. Still going to be a rough winter, and still some tough times ahead, but he's very good at this shit. Maybe if things continue to go tits up his jokey boosterism will wear thin and people will want a more serious leader like Starmer, but I don't know...have to see how things are by next election.

This is it. Tory pricks to an absolute tee. Plus it makes Labour/Keir look so dull in comparison.

We're probably gonna get absolutely smashed again at the next election tbh.

 

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3 minutes ago, Zacko said:

This is it. Tory pricks to an absolute tee. Plus it makes Labour/Keir look so dull in comparison.

We're probably gonna get absolutely smashed again at the next election tbh.

 

No wonder Labour will lose when their own supporters describe the party/leader as dull and think they’ll get smashed. We might as well pack up now.

I saw a vastly different party last week, one that look driven, passionate and motivated.

Besides recent polling suggests Labour won’t get smashed at the next election. 

Edited by Ozanne
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3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

No wonder Labour will lose when their own supporters describe the party/leader as dull and think they’ll get smashed. We might as well pack up now.

I saw a vastly different party last week, one that look driven, passionate and motivated.

Besides recent polling suggests Labour won’t get smashed at the next election. 

Or

No wonder Labour will lose when seemingly a section of their own supporters & members can't recognise that the party itself needs to change current tact as opposition given it's making very little if any in roads despite the absolute clusterfuck of a government we currently have?

Do you not see that you're in a minority with your current view of the party compared to that of everyone else? 

Stevie is putting across very valid points but you fail to acknowledge this due to your rose tinted spectacles and blinkered vision of the party. 

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Soz Oz, just saying how I see it.

Johnson, like Corbyn, is marmite. You love him or hate him, except obviously the love/hate ratio for Johnson is higher than Corbyn.  Whereas more people are indifferent to Starmer, which may play to his favour one day if people get sick of Johnson and his stock falls. Trouble is, as soon as that happens the tories will just replace him.

Edited by steviewevie
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3 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Soz Oz, just saying how I see it.

Johnson, like Corbyn, is marmite. You love him or hate him, except obviously the love/hate ratio for Johnson is higher than Corbyn.  Whereas more people are indifferent to Starmer, which play to his favour one day if people get sick of Johnson and his stock falls. Trouble is, as soon as that happens the tories will just replace him.

That wasn’t your original point though, your point was to bash Starmer for talking about his Dad whilst given Johnson plenty of leeway for offering nothing at all in his speech. It epitomises the double standards in British politics between the 2 parties. People in general seem very happy to ignore the very real failings of the Tory government but if Labour do anything slightly wrong in their view they jump on them.

I do see a Labour Party that’s energetic and driven to displace the Tories. I see good policies being offered now that can genuinely change lives for the better unlike the 1 policy that was offered from the Tories. Clearly it’s a Party that still has a lot of work to do but they do motivate and excite me for the potential of what’s to come.

As I said it’s no wonder people in the general public might feel a malaise for Labour when some of their own supporters are quite down on the party (although I suspect some of these people aren’t really the Labour supporters they claim to be and secretly support the Tories. I don’t think that about Zacko though or many on here).

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18 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

That wasn’t your original point though, your point was to bash Starmer for talking about his Dad whilst given Johnson plenty of leeway for offering nothing at all in his speech. It epitomises the double standards in British politics between the 2 parties. People in general seem very happy to ignore the very real failings of the Tory government but if Labour do anything slightly wrong in their view they jump on them.

I do see a Labour Party that’s energetic and driven to displace the Tories. I see good policies being offered now that can genuinely change lives for the better unlike the 1 policy that was offered from the Tories. Clearly it’s a Party that still has a lot of work to do but they do motivate and excite me for the potential of what’s to come.

As I said it’s no wonder people in the general public might feel a malaise for Labour when some of their own supporters are quite down on the party (although I suspect some of these people aren’t really the Labour supporters they claim to be and secretly support the Tories. I don’t think that about Zacko though or many on here).

when did I bash Starmer talking about his Dad?

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3 minutes ago, Gingerfish79 said:

image.png.4c10eda7a7298819e80de48c3cf28f86.png

Pretty biased tbf, starmer isn’t that popular but he’s way less unpopular than Corbyn if that makes sense. Corbyn was adored by some but hated by plenty more. That graph doesn’t show the popular/ unpopular split like these things normally do. Coming from the source I’m not shocked tho.

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4 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

and I don't think most Starmer hate comes from tories, but from the left...people like mattiloy who backed him but then feel Starmer has broken his leadership election pledges as he shifts labour to the centre ground.


Haha don’t drag me into it. I’ve decided I’m not getting involved in this sorry situation anymore. Maybe Starmer will surprise everyone.

IMO he’s listened to the wrong people, misread the prevailing political winds, and now he’s potentially laid the ground work to continue the stagnation of Labour where New Labour left off forever more. All things considered, without PR the future of the Labour party, and by extension the UK, looks bleak. If the right wing rump of the PLP and the membership that remains after the next GE allows Burnham to step up as leader and maybe he’d turn it around. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the PLP scuppered him by withholding their nominations. 

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16 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Perplexing that someone can be quite so passionate in defence of starmer. 
 

He hasn’t been great let’s face it but hopefully he will improve by the next election or circumstances are so favourable that he barely needs to do anything to do well.


The sunk cost fallacy. Escalation of commitment. In for a penny, in for a pound. Like a cult.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

 

 

Also applies to Brexit. Unfortunately its hard to concede that you were wrong, even in the face of the obvious.

Edited by mattiloy
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28 minutes ago, mattiloy said:


Haha don’t drag me into it. I’ve decided I’m not getting involved in this sorry situation anymore. Maybe Starmer will surprise everyone.

IMO he’s listened to the wrong people, misread the prevailing political winds, and now he’s potentially laid the ground work to continue the stagnation of Labour where New Labour left off forever more. All things considered, without PR the future of the Labour party, and by extension the UK, looks bleak. If the right wing rump of the PLP and the membership that remains after the next GE allows Burnham to step up as leader and maybe he’d turn it around. But it wouldn’t surprise me if the PLP scuppered him by withholding their nominations. 

or he's just trying to make them electable as only time labour have won in last 40 odd years is when they went all new labour.

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1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

No wonder Labour will lose when their own supporters describe the party/leader as dull and think they’ll get smashed. We might as well pack up now.

I saw a vastly different party last week, one that look driven, passionate and motivated.

Besides recent polling suggests Labour won’t get smashed at the next election. 

I just think the enormity of the challenge requires one of those once in a generation figures charisma wise. An Obama or someone of that ilk. Personally just can't see him exciting or inspiring enough of the country to face the uphill challenge. It's not really anything against him though as he's a good man. The person required for the role probably doesn't even exist in the party tbf.

I'll 100% be voting for him though, don't get me wrong! 

 

Edited by Zacko
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https://www.channel4.com/news/boris-johnson-on-labour-shortages-there-is-no-alternative?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Surely this is an absolutely disastrous way to deal with this? There's a huge black hole where the detail needs to be for how they're going to achieve this new economy of theirs. Exactly how much is the country going to change...

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