news & politics:discussion

[mcshed]

37 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

It’s not important compared to other things going on. But let’s be angry at the Labour leader instead of the Tory government for causing pain and misery to many. 

The problem with this is barring the cut to universal credit the Tory government isn't directly causing pain and misery. They are in fact trying to come up with solutions however cack handedly and however much responsibility should lie on their shoulders. What Labour are doing is infighting.

Being in opposition is hard, the idea is to look like a competent government but that is always going to be easier for the actual ministers who get to do stuff. We've only changed government twice in the last 40 years. 

[Ozanne]

8 minutes ago, Florian Saucer Attack said:

All the infighting under Corbyn certainly cost them votes.

Remember this particularly fight was started by Starmer when he tried to change the election rules. If he doesn't want infighting he shouldn't have attempted this brazen gerrymandering attempt. 

We shouldn't just accept everything labour leaders do just because the tories are w*nkers.

When Corbyn was in power the labour members who didn't like him made it painfully obvious. I don't see why the left should just bend over and take it when Starmer does something which damages their prospects of influencing labour.  

I felt the same under Corbyn, people in the party should’ve supported him and many on the left said so at the time. Those people are now doing to Starmer what they criticised others for under Corbyn, because it isn’t exactly the politics they are after. It plays a part of why Labour lose elections.

People should be able to give their feelings on decisions taken by a Labour leader but when they end up ignoring what the Tories are doing and just slate the leader it becomes frustrating. 
 

25 minutes ago, mcshed said:

The problem with this is barring the cut to universal credit the Tory government isn't directly causing pain and misery. They are in fact trying to come up with solutions however cack handedly and however much responsibility should lie on their shoulders. What Labour are doing is infighting.

Being in opposition is hard, the idea is to look like a competent government but that is always going to be easier for the actual ministers who get to do stuff. We've only changed government twice in the last 40 years. 

The Tories hard Brexit is directly impacting supply chains etc so they have done a lot to cause much of the pain being felt. They shouldn’t be able to create a problem then be praised when they try to fix said problem. 

[squirrelarmy]

[steviewevie]

The electoral change thing is kind of a big deal. I know most people don't care, but this is how the leader is elected, and is actually an important process, and the changes being proposed are obviously to try and stop someone like Corbyn becoming leader again. And in the absence of much else happening from labour, apart from the odd 12000 word essay,  it made the news...but it wasn't exactly headlines...that's taken up with gas prices and petrol panic buying and getting some EU slaves in to deliver turkeys for christmas. But, still...Rayner is saying stuff today about workers rights...not sure many people will know about it though.

[Matt42]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Fight the Tories, not each other. 

You can’t fight a battle if you don’t have a unified army. Tories will walk it.

Labour needs to sort itself out first before it does anything. But I fear that it’s too far gone at the moment.

My view is that the worst is yet to come with Labour. Their next defeat will be even worse and then eventually it will end in a split. We are watching the death of the opposition party in-front of us. Just like the Liberal Party in the 1900s.

The worst is yet to come.

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

The Tories hard Brexit is directly impacting supply chains etc so they have done a lot to cause much of the pain being felt. They shouldn’t be able to create a problem then be praised when they try to fix said problem. 

It is certainly a contributing factor but it isn't exactly what they set out to do but unnecessary rule changes IS what Starmer is doing. Again it may not be fair but that is the game, if Starmer had the support to get the rule changes through maybe for him it would be worth the distraction but having the fight and losing is stupid in a way the Brexiting when that is what a lot of people want isn't.

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, mcshed said:

It is certainly a contributing factor but it isn't exactly what they set out to do but unnecessary rule changes IS what Starmer is doing. Again it may not be fair but that is the game, if Starmer had the support to get the rule changes through maybe for him it would be worth the distraction but having the fight and losing is stupid in a way the Brexiting when that is what a lot of people want isn't.

I think he was hoping for more support from the unions...and probably from more MPs and ministers. Not many seemed very enthusiastic about it, infact it seemed most were thinking why the feck do this now?

[steviewevie]

Another problem for Starmer is he seems to be bit of a lone figure, hasn't really got much support from any wing of the party.

[stuartbert two hats]

2 hours ago, Ozanne said:

I disagree. I feel that this type of infighting and constantly snipping at the leader plays a big part of what keeps the Tories in power. The Tories are very good at showing a unified front and if the public see a party that is constantly bashing their own leader then of course they’ll be less likely to vote for them.

Fight the Tories, not each other. 

Don't you see that this is Starmer trying to fight his own party? 

[Matt42]

6 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

Another problem for Starmer is he seems to be bit of a lone figure, hasn't really got much support from any wing of the party.

And what happens with this? Complete electoral failure. If division was a big part in why Corbyn stunk out the Labour Party then just wait until Starmer is on the ballot.

4 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Don't you see that this is Starmer trying to fight his own party? 

Exactly. People always throw the “stop contributing to the Labour infighting” as if the leaders of the party themselves hugely contributing to it.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Matt42

[steviewevie]

17 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

You can’t fight a battle if you don’t have a unified army. Tories will walk it.

Labour needs to sort itself out first before it does anything. But I fear that it’s too far gone at the moment.

My view is that the worst is yet to come with Labour. Their next defeat will be even worse and then eventually it will end in a split. We are watching the death of the opposition party in-front of us. Just like the Liberal Party in the 1900s.

The worst is yet to come.

wasn't long ago people were declaring the tory party dead and buried. So, let's see. There may well be a few that split off and form a new party, but they all know that a small party really struggles to get anywhere. See SDP, see Change UK.

[Crazyfool01]

57 minutes ago, squirrelarmy said:

Stop fuelling the fire 🔥 

[Ozanne]

6 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

Don't you see that this is Starmer trying to fight his own party? 

Of course but sadly I don’t have the ability to tell Starmer to stop fighting with his party.

He is also the leader though so it comes with the job that a leader will try to mild the party/organisation. All leaders have done the same. Ultimately we should get behind the leader as he is currently our best shot at getting rid of the Tories, which is the most important things facing the country right now.

[steviewevie]

1 minute ago, Matt42 said:

And what happens with this? Complete electoral failure. If division was a big part in why Corbyn stunk out the Labour Party then just wait until Starmer is on the ballot.

6 minutes ago, stuartbert two hats said:

I just meant if he is in trouble, he doesn't get much support from other MPs or ministers, unlike past leaders. He hasn't been a politician that long to build up a base. Saying that, it's kind of similar with Johnson, but because he's so fuckin good at winning elections they go along with it.

[steviewevie]

Here you are...gripping stuff.

 

[Ozanne]

Recent amalgamation of polling shows the Tories would lose their majority which is hardly ‘electoral failure’ for Labour. 

[Matt42]

11 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

wasn't long ago people were declaring the tory party dead and buried. So, let's see. There may well be a few that split off and form a new party, but they all know that a small party really struggles to get anywhere. See SDP, see Change UK.

Noooo not at all. How is the Tory party dead? Ideologically maybe but at the moment they are still the vote winners. I can’t see that changing without opposition. They’ve absorbed the Brexit Party and I don't think there is any Farage alternative party in the making either to split votes. 

[Matt42]

16 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Recent amalgamation of polling shows the Tories would lose their majority which is hardly ‘electoral failure’ for Labour. 

I’m not going to get into another poll debate but we all know that once the election machine kicks in tories surge in the polls. Their voters might be disappointed in the middle of their term but once it comes to voting again they show their true feelings.

Also people in the UK just frankly lie about who they would vote for.

Edited September 25, 2021 by Matt42

[fraybentos1]

4 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Noooo not at all. How is the Tory party dead? Ideologically maybe but at the moment they are still the vote winners. I can’t see that changing without opposition. They’ve absorbed the Brexit Party and I don't think there is any Farage alternative party in the making either to split votes. 

In 1997 people said the tories were dead. Here we are now.

 

43 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Their next defeat will be even worse 

The worst is yet to come.

It won't be. Labour can't really do worse than they did in 2019. It won't happen.

[Ozanne]

Just now, Matt42 said:

I’m not going to get into another poll debate but we all know that once the election machine kicks in tories surge in the polls. Their voters might be disappointed in the middle of their term but once it comes to voting again they show their true feelings.

That’s half true, traditionally in an election both main parties seeing their polling increase as both have a share of the airtime. If anything polling narrows. 

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

we all know that once the election machine kicks in tories surge in the polls. 

Not always. Look at 2017.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

It won't be. Labour can't really do worse than they did in 2019. It won't happen.

Definitely can. In fact I could probably point to some seats they are provably bound to lose by the next election. 

[steviewevie]

3 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Noooo not at all. How is the Tory party dead? Ideologically maybe but at the moment they are still the vote winners. I can’t see that changing without opposition. They’ve absorbed the Brexit Party and I don't think there is any Farage alternative party in the making either to split votes. 

I mean in the late 90s and early 2000s....when labour took the centre ground. But obviously things changed, blair made some big fuckups etc.

[Matt42]

1 minute ago, fraybentos1 said:

Not always. Look at 2017.

If the best the Labour Party can hope for is 2017 which they got against a prime minister on the way out...that isn't a win. They ain't reaching those “heights” with Starmer anyway.

They are up against someone extremely populist compared to Theresa may... It's a different ball game. 

[fraybentos1]

3 minutes ago, Matt42 said:

Definitely can. In fact I could probably point to some seats they are provably bound to lose by the next election. 

Yeah but by the same token, you can also point to ones the Tories will lose. The Brexit/ culture wars stuff goes both ways. You can't seriously tell me you expect Labour to get under 200 seats in 2024?