news & politics:discussion

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

All this talk of PR - is there any chance of it happening? There was a pretty decisive referendum ten years ago, so unless there is an absolute clamour for a change to PR, or if the incumbent government will benefit massively from it, I can't see it happening any time soon.

Only way I can see it happening is if labour promise it to smaller parties in order to form a coalition, and then might need to be via another referendum. More than likely won't happen, but you never know.

[eFestivals]

14 minutes ago, maelzoid said:

All this talk of PR - is there any chance of it happening? There was a pretty decisive referendum ten years ago, so unless there is an absolute clamour for a change to PR, or if the incumbent government will benefit massively from it, I can't see it happening any time soon.

Can't see labour supporting or I'll be the death of them.people like you would vote for other parties.

[mattiloy]

30 minutes ago, steviewevie said:

By centrist you mean social democrat and green parties like they have in Europe?

No not really, policy positions of social democratic and Green parties across Europe are more in tune with Corbynism than with the hard right of the labour party.

 

4 minutes ago, topmarksbri said:

f it means we get Ed Miliband - The Party then I'm here for it. Centrists should support it as well even if you're right (you're not) that it would mean them being pointless/unpopular and irrelevant because they wouldn't have to share a party with your Chris Williamsons and your Richard Burgeons and you would hopefully spend less time on internal politics.

Here is the EU parliament, the yellow bloc is the lib/centre. It is a pattern repeated across Europe. In systems with PR they are often in coalition governments but basically never as the leader.

[eFestivals]

2 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

No not really, policy positions of social democratic and Green parties across Europe are more in tune with Corbynism than with the hard right of the labour party.

 

Here is the EU parliament, the yellow bloc is the lib/centre. It is a pattern repeated across Europe. In systems with PR they are often in coalition governments but basically never as the leader.

Because people of the UK loved coalition govt

[topmarksbri]

43 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

Here is the EU parliament, the yellow bloc is the lib/centre. It is a pattern repeated across Europe. In systems with PR they are often in coalition governments but basically never as the leader.

 

I see what you're saying but the blocs don't really tell whole picture - Labour were a part of S&D block all through the Blair/Brown years weren't they? I know what you mean in the general decline of centre left/Pasokification but there's still third way/centre left governments - Norway, Portugal spring to mind, Dutch Labour party having a bit of a revival. 

[Ozanne]

Thread on polling of Labour Members:

 

[Gilgamesh69]

1 hour ago, eFestivals said:

Because people of the UK loved coalition govt

....what?

 

I really don't see how a shitty coalition between the Libs and the Tories is at all relevant to this

[Gilgamesh69]

Seriously now, what is even the point of centrism???? If youre gonna be a right winger at least have some balls and admit it

[fraybentos1]

9 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Seriously now, what is even the point of centrism???? If youre gonna be a right winger at least have some balls and admit it

Has anyone here even described themselves as a centrist? It's possible to be left wing and criticise  Corbyn's leadership.

Winning elections relies on winning votes from the centre ground, to claim otherwise is just denying reality.

[Gilgamesh69]

2 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

Has anyone here even described themselves as a centrist? It's possible to be left wing and criticise  Corbyn's leadership.

Winning elections relies on winning votes from the centre ground, to claim otherwise is just denying reality.

Centrists often like to pretend they're left wing but when the time comes they veer toward the right. 

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

No not really, policy positions of social democratic and Green parties across Europe are more in tune with Corbynism than with the hard right of the labour party.

 

Here is the EU parliament, the yellow bloc is the lib/centre. It is a pattern repeated across Europe. In systems with PR they are often in coalition governments but basically never as the leader.

German Green party are kind of centrist.

Anyway, I just wish we had PR and labour could split. Sick of the factionalism. Save it for when they are in coalition.

[steviewevie]

23 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Seriously now, what is even the point of centrism???? If youre gonna be a right winger at least have some balls and admit it

define centrism.

[fraybentos1]

7 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Centrists often like to pretend they're left wing but when the time comes they veer toward the right. 

Maybe, I've no idea. Do you agree that these are the sort of voters the left needs to appeal to and get votes from to win power? If so, how do you suggest Labour goes about doing that?

[mattiloy]

44 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Thread on polling of Labour Members:

 

An extravaganza of shit. A disaster of a dataset.

72% of the sample are 50+! These are, unsurprisingly, overwhelmingly pro Starmer.
 

The breakdown for the 18-24s shows a plurality of anti Starmer sentiment, the 24-50 years is only very marginally in Starmers favour.

Also naturally does not include the hundreds of thousands that have left the party in the last 6months.

But its okay, it will simply be even funnier when he loses Hartlepool by >10% and then gets about 20% at the next general election. But the yougov survey said he was more popular than Corbyn! Hehehe

[steviewevie]

8 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

Centrists often like to pretend they're left wing but when the time comes they veer toward the right. 

when the time comes? wtf are on about.

I liked Corbyn's policies, but didn't have much truck with Corbyn...weak on antisemitism, weak on brexit, shitty with the media, but he certainly enjoyed his moment on the pyrammid stage and those stupid chants. preferred McDonnell.

[fraybentos1]

5 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

An extravaganza of shit. A disaster of a dataset.

72% of the sample are 50+! These are, unsurprisingly, overwhelmingly pro Starmer.
 

The breakdown for the 18-24s shows a plurality of anti Starmer sentiment, the 24-50 years is only very marginally in Starmers favour.

Also naturally does not include the hundreds of thousands that have left the party in the last 6months.

But its okay, it will simply be even funnier when he loses Hartlepool by >10% and then gets about 20% at the next general election. But the yougov survey said he was more popular than Corbyn! Hehehe

He's quite clearly going to be more popular with the electorate than Corbyn, almost anyone would be. I assume the 20% is you fishing but he will defo get more than the 32 odd that Corbyn got in 2019. 

[eFestivals]

35 minutes ago, Gilgamesh69 said:

....what?

 

I really don't see how a shitty coalition between the Libs and the Tories is at all relevant to this

People dislike that they get watered down policies agreed between the parties without voter involvement.

[steviewevie]

The blue wall.

https://strongmessagehere.substack.com/p/the-blue-wall

[mattiloy]

6 minutes ago, fraybentos1 said:

He's quite clearly going to be more popular with the electorate than Corbyn, almost anyone would be. I assume the 20% is you fishing but he will defo get more than the 32 odd that Corbyn got in 2019. 

If he pivots left he has a chance. If the tories completely fuck it then he has a chance.

But ceteris paribus, on his current track, he’ll be lucky to get 25%.

[fraybentos1]

1 minute ago, mattiloy said:

If he pivots left he has a chance. If the tories completely fuck it then he has a chance.

But ceteris paribus, on his current track, he’ll be lucky to get 25%.

You're defo trolling at this point 😂 even their lowest polling has them well above that after a bad couple months. We get it you don't like Starmer lol

[Haan]

1 hour ago, Ozanne said:

Thread on polling of Labour Members:

 

whenever i see a poll that doesn't align with my views 

[Ozanne]

24 minutes ago, mattiloy said:

An extravaganza of shit. A disaster of a dataset.

72% of the sample are 50+! These are, unsurprisingly, overwhelmingly pro Starmer.
 

The breakdown for the 18-24s shows a plurality of anti Starmer sentiment, the 24-50 years is only very marginally in Starmers favour.

Also naturally does not include the hundreds of thousands that have left the party in the last 6months.

But its okay, it will simply be even funnier when he loses Hartlepool by >10% and then gets about 20% at the next general election. But the yougov survey said he was more popular than Corbyn! Hehehe

Yeah I did think the poll would be positive to Starmer because a lot of members have left. But overall I think it’s positive as it shows that the people that like Labour currently are the ones that they need to win over in the wider country. I appreciate the real test though is next month and for what it’s worth I think Labour will squeak it.

[steviewevie]

1 hour ago, mattiloy said:

ceteris paribus

huh?

[eFestivals]

27 minutes ago, Barry Fish said:

Surely the best politics is a sensible mix of left and right ? 

Some people love extremism but don't have the balls to say it

[eFestivals]

4 hours ago, steviewevie said:

We really need PR and then labour can finally split.

And Corbyn and co can join a trots party and have thre irrelevance they crave.