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12 minutes ago, Haan said:

Well obviously my idea, I don't need to preface every statement I make with "in my view" do I? 

I don't think he's right wing, I just think so far he seems to be veering to the right on more and more issues.

Nah, he's just making sure he stays out of the more nutty areas which would help fuel the inevitable attacks he'll get at election time. Why give them the ammo?

 

12 minutes ago, Haan said:

I have no idea what you mean by this, working class areas are the most effected by the war on drugs; glasgow has a big heroin problem and London and it's surrounding areas have the "country lines" problem and I can guarantee that they give a shit about solving this issue.

It's an issue for a niche of the working class, while not being a purely class issue.

Fact remains it's a long way from a universal issue for the working classes, and a focus on it would make many feel that Labour isn't talking about their problems.

That's not saying there's no issue but it's not an issue that's worth extra votes.

 

12 minutes ago, Haan said:

Anyway, I think it's important for us to continue to make noise about left wing issues like this

Is drugs a left wing issue?

Much more a libertarian or liberal issue I'd say.

 

12 minutes ago, Haan said:

Because like I said before, we need to swing the conversation in our favour somehow. Farage managed it and he's an idiot so why can't we?

'Our' favour???

Farage rode a single issue, using grievence and not detail, and promising the world on a stick.

Jez tried similar and failed. Because what he said sat less well with the working classes than Farage. 

I said a while back that the left might say what their immigration limits are as a counter to the likes of Farage. Until the left will engage with questions like this they're so far away from the working classes they claim to represent that the working classes they need to reach won't listen.

Ps: you probably want to read that again. It doesn't say what you've probably taken it as saying.

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One of the things I learned from the last election was how little people actually give a shit about politics. I was speaking with my mum the other day who likes to follow the news fairly closely and she was saying she didn't want to support Labour 'because of Corbyn'. I asked her if she'd heard that he'd been booted from the party and she hadn't.

The reality is that we (people who discuss politics online and focus fully on the thing) are outliers. If when an election is announced and campaign mode starts Keir is doing shite then I'll start to worry, but for now most people either don't know anything about him or don't really care.

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13 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Especially when quite a few people put ‘Jedi’ on one of the previous ones 😂

 

Edit - that was for religion tbf 

I’ll be putting Jedi again like I have done for the previous two Census. 
 

Can’t refute it as my belief in this made up religion is just as valid as everyone else’s beliefs in their chosen made up religion. 

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5 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

One of the things I learned from the last election was how little people actually give a shit about politics. I was speaking with my mum the other day who likes to follow the news fairly closely and she was saying she didn't want to support Labour 'because of Corbyn'. I asked her if she'd heard that he'd been booted from the party and she hadn't.

The reality is that we (people who discuss politics online and focus fully on the thing) are outliers. If when an election is announced and campaign mode starts Keir is doing shite then I'll start to worry, but for now most people either don't know anything about him or don't really care.

Totally agree - though I do still occasionally feel slightly astounded that the average person isn't a tad more peeved about the government taking TWENTY TWO FUCXING BILLION POUNDS OF OUR MONEY for track and trace.

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19 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

One of the things I learned from the last election was how little people actually give a shit about politics. I was speaking with my mum the other day who likes to follow the news fairly closely and she was saying she didn't want to support Labour 'because of Corbyn'. I asked her if she'd heard that he'd been booted from the party and she hadn't.

The reality is that we (people who discuss politics online and focus fully on the thing) are outliers. If when an election is announced and campaign mode starts Keir is doing shite then I'll start to worry, but for now most people either don't know anything about him or don't really care.

Out of interest what was it about Corbyn that she didn’t like?

Edited by Ozanne
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3 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Out of interest what was it about Corbyn that she didn’t like?

She is vehemently anti-IRA and thinks Corbyn was too cosy to them, believes that many of his ideas are promises that he would go back on or not achieve.

She's quite progressive generally, despises the Conservatives and as a care worker has seen the devastation austerity has caused.

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Just now, Alex DeLarge said:

She is vehemently anti-IRA and thinks Corbyn was too cosy to them, believes that many of his ideas are promises that he would go back on or not achieve.

She's quite progressive generally, despises the Conservatives and as a care worker has seen the devastation austerity has caused.

That’s really interesting and I understand some of those concerns. I’m interested as to why people didn’t like Corbyn when he only ever comes across to me as a genuine person who wants to help people. 

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23 minutes ago, Alex DeLarge said:

She is vehemently anti-IRA and thinks Corbyn was too cosy to them, believes that many of his ideas are promises that he would go back on or not achieve.

She's quite progressive generally, despises the Conservatives and as a care worker has seen the devastation austerity has caused.

The IRA thing is one that's likely to provoke that sort of response from anyone who wasn't a kid from around 1970-1995-ish. Younger people just don't seem to get it.

The main problem with Corbyn was the amount of baggage like that - any one of which might make someone feel they couldn't vote for him. These things were always obvious.

Edited by eFestivals
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47 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Fact remains it's a long way from a universal issue for the working classes, and a focus on it would make many feel that Labour isn't talking about their problems.

I don't think it needs to be focus per say, just when he was quizzed on it he could've nudged it in the right direction imo

48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

Is drugs a left wing issue?

Much more a libertarian or liberal issue I'd say.

lol no need to be pedantic, you can get left wing libertarians and I would say certain policies like having drug consumption rooms would be considered left wing. Before you say anything, I'm not saying Starmer should be calling for drug consumption rooms or anything.

52 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

'Our' favour???

Erm yeah didn't you say you agree with the policies but you just don't think the electorate does? 

 

Anyway, I'll be interested to see how he plays the May elections

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Just now, Haan said:

I don't think it needs to be focus per say, just when he was quizzed on it he could've nudged it in the right direction imo

He could have, but some battles aren't worth starting or aren't worth starting right now.

His focus is (I presume) on winning more votes, and not on giving you soothing words.

 

Just now, Haan said:

Lol no need to be pedantic, you can get left wing libertarians

You can also get policies that mean more to the working classes

 

Just now, Haan said:

and I would say certain policies like having drug consumption rooms would be considered left wing. Before you say anything, I'm not saying Starmer should be calling for drug consumption rooms or anything.

As I'm sure you're aware, the more extreme policies run the risk of turning people off.

Unfortunately, a change from current drug laws also falls roughly within extreme - the backtracking on class c canniabis didn't happen for no reason.

 

Just now, Haan said:

Erm yeah didn't you say you agree with the policies but you just don't think the electorate does? 

Yes, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Your wording suggested that you were deciding to own the issue on behalf of the working classes; a big part of Labours problems, deciding what they care about for them.

 

Just now, Haan said:

Anyway, I'll be interested to see how he plays the May elections

Yeah, me too.

I'm far from sure that Starmer will work out ok, but he's still more on the money for trying to win votes than Corbyn ever was. 

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48 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The IRA thing is one that's likely to provoke that sort of response from anyone who wasn't a kid from around 1970-1995-ish. Younger people just don't seem to get it.

The main problem with Corbyn was the amount of baggage like that - any one of which might make someone feel they couldn't vote for him. These things were always obvious.

Would you mind explaining to me please a bit more about why people of that age might have exception with Corbyn for the IRA stuff? My knowledge isn't good with that area of history. But I gather that he met with with the IRA who at that time were responsible for terrorist attacks so people associated him with talking with the enemy? Rightly or wrongly, I'm not saying either way.

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55 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

The IRA thing is one that's likely to provoke that sort of response from anyone who wasn't a kid from around 1970-1995-ish. Younger people just don't seem to get it.

Not to get into it too much but also the IRA had a harmful and very direct impact on a member of my family so it's a sensitive issue for us.

I'm young(ish) and have observed the same thing you have pretty much. It's what sunk Corbyn in many ways.

My family tend to be a pretty good bellwether - I knew Cummings-gate was cutting through and becoming a real headache for the Tories when several of them started talking about it and how annoyed they were by it. Right now the narrative seems to be 'Boris is doing his best, but he's made some mistakes', Starmer is almost anonymous to them. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the way many people feel.

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Just now, Ozanne said:

Would you mind explaining to me please a bit more about why people of that age might have exception with Corbyn for the IRA stuff? My knowledge isn't good with that area of history. But I gather that he met with with the IRA who at that time were responsible for terrorist attacks so people associated him with talking with the enemy? Rightly or wrongly, I'm not saying either way.

Terrorists killing Brits on British streets. Including kids. And horses.

How much love do Islamic terrorists get from the public? It's no different, unless you think violence is justifiable for one but not the other.

He wasn't even talking with the enemy, just associating with them as his badge of 1980s lefty 'honour'. "I hate the UK", a problem for the UK's left since at least Orwell's time (there's a famous quote of Orwell's)

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1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

Not to get into it too much but also the IRA had a harmful and very direct impact on a member of my family so it's a sensitive issue for us.

Well, exactly. They bombed my local town too.

People don't just forget this stuff.

 

1 minute ago, Alex DeLarge said:

I'm young(ish) and have observed the same thing you have pretty much. It's what sunk Corbyn in many ways.

My family tend to be a pretty good bellwether - I knew Cummings-gate was cutting through and becoming a real headache for the Tories when several of them started talking about it and how annoyed they were by it. Right now the narrative seems to be 'Boris is doing his best, but he's made some mistakes', Starmer is almost anonymous to them. I wouldn't be surprised if this is the way many people feel.

 

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1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Terrorists killing Brits on British streets. Including kids. And horses.

How much love do Islamic terrorists get from the public? It's no different, unless you think violence is justifiable for one but not the other.

He wasn't even talking with the enemy, just associating with them as his badge of 1980s lefty 'honour'. "I hate the UK", a problem for the UK's left since at least Orwell's time (there's a famous quote of Orwell's)

Thanks for explaining it. I wasn't trying to give off any opinion, I genuinely wanted to know more about it. 

I'm an outlier but the more I saw of Corbyn the more I liked him. He got me voting Labour for the first time even though they supported honouring the referendum vote. So I am really interested why so many others have the completely opposite view to me on this.

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2 minutes ago, Ozanne said:

Thanks for explaining it. I wasn't trying to give off any opinion, I genuinely wanted to know more about it. 

I'm an outlier but the more I saw of Corbyn the more I liked him. He got me voting Labour for the first time even though they supported honouring the referendum vote. So I am really interested why so many others have the completely opposite view to me on this.

As an 80s lefty myself I totally get where Corbyn is coming from. If he hadn't spent 30 years being anonymous I'd have probably thought he was great back then, instead of 'never heard of him' (I will have done, just nothing that stuck).

The difference between me and Corbyn is that I realised long ago that those opinions are not popular with Joe public, and often offensive.

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1 minute ago, eFestivals said:

Yes, but that wasn't what I was getting at. Your wording suggested that you were deciding to own the issue on behalf of the working classes; a big part of Labours problems, deciding what they care about for them.

The only reason I did is because I grew up working class and I know many working class people who do care about this stuff (which is anecdotal evidence I know). And I'm not trying to own any issue here, I was just pointing out that these issues effect working class areas the most. 

 

12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

I'm far from sure that Starmer will work out ok, but he's still more on the money for trying to win votes than Corbyn ever was. 

I would say he has a higher chance of winning, and I'll be interested to see which policies he thinks are just the right amount of progressive for the electorate 

 

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Another thing I would add is I think one of the reasons why Corbyn failed was he represented too much top down change. If we had a stronger trade union presence, a good amount of grassroots organisations and a solid network of MPs (a bit like the Justice Dems in the US) we could've been in a much better position and fared a much better chance. And also as mentioned before a fairer media/press.

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Just now, Haan said:

The only reason I did is because I grew up working class and I know many working class people who do care about this stuff (which is anecdotal evidence I know). And I'm not trying to own any issue here, I was just pointing out that these issues effect working class areas the most. 

I don't disagree that they affect working class areas.

But once you remove the love for local cheeky boys/gangsters, those working classes generally want drugs and dealers removed from their community, rather than making room for them.

 

Just now, Haan said:

I would say he has a higher chance of winning, and I'll be interested to see which policies he thinks are just the right amount of progressive for the electorate 

 

Me, I think he might be too dull to win, but he's leader cos he's the best Labour seem to have.

Which is it's own problem.

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Just now, Haan said:

Another thing I would add is I think one of the reasons why Corbyn failed was he represented too much top down change. If we had a stronger trade union presence, a good amount of grassroots organisations and a solid network of MPs (a bit like the Justice Dems in the US) we could've been in a much better position and fared a much better chance. And also as mentioned before a fairer media/press.

You mean if he had people on side with his ideas rather than against him/them?

Who knew? 😛

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12 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

As an 80s lefty myself I totally get where Corbyn is coming from. If he hadn't spent 30 years being anonymous I'd have probably thought he was great back then, instead of 'never heard of him' (I will have done, just nothing that stuck).

The difference between me and Corbyn is that I realised long ago that those opinions are not popular with Joe public, and often offensive.

I've read that John McDonnell has even closer IRA ties than Corbyn - and he's not particularly bothered who knows it either.

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5 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

But once you remove the love for local cheeky boys/gangsters, those working classes generally want drugs and dealers removed from their community, rather than making room for them.

This is where the controlling the conversation bit comes into play tho, legalisation and decriminalisation does massively reduce drugs in a community.

4 minutes ago, eFestivals said:

You mean if he had people on side with his ideas rather than against him/them?

Who knew? 😛

Lmao only to the MPs point, I also meant having some organisation on the grassroots level, separate from Labour entirely. 

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The thing that kills me about the left is people tying themselves in knots and in fighting over stuff that no normal person really gives a shit about. As already said, the average person doesn't care about politics. I regard myself as being more switched on than the average person, but I still don't know much about/have an opinion on the situation in Israel. Not sure that's going to have much cut-through on the doorstep.

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