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Black Lives Matter


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47 minutes ago, guypjfreak said:

Really hate to put this out there.. Yes slavery was a terrible time in history but you must remember that it was black men who sold black men to the slavers.. 

It's all bad 

It would have been incredibly easy for you to not put that out there, and yet...

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3 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

Really hate to put this out there.. Yes slavery was a terrible time in history but you must remember that it was black men who sold black men to the slavers.. 

It's all bad 

Yes and no.

Slavery as a concept had obviously been around for centuries up to that point, and the people of Africa were involved in it like many many others. No one can or should dispute that.

But...

The big difference is how countries like Britain, Spain, Portugal & France industrialised that process, and used it to fund development of the state and economy that we're all enjoying the benefits of to this day.  The slave trade was pretty much the thing that lifted Britain from a B-list European power to the top of the tree, and funded the growth of the Empire.  While the Empire itself has now gone, you can pretty much directly trace our economic and political position in the world today back to our economic growth in that period. 

I've realised recently that these conversations need to be had.  It's not enough just to say "that's irrelevant" or "you shouldn't say that"; if you're like me and want to do what you can to improve things, it happens one conversation at a time. That's not a dig at Ammy or Swedge, but change at the ground level has to come from engaging and talking and arguing the case. Not an aggressive argument, but in the sense of having the debate.

EDIT: re-reading that I should correct something. Not specifically the trade in slaves that made us money, but the resulting profits from the products of the work they were set to in the new world. Minor point, but important to try to be as correct as possible.

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1 hour ago, guypjfreak said:

Really hate to put this out there.. Yes slavery was a terrible time in history but you must remember that it was black men who sold black men to the slavers.. 

It's all bad 

Also worth pointing out it's not a time in history. Slavery still exists in many forms. It's not something to be complacent about and we should all look at the ethics of companies we choose to purchase from and do everything we can to ensure we put an end to exploitation of humans for financial gain. 

It's hard because it's so endemic in society but I know whilst I am not perfect I am much more conscious of my purchasing choices these days. 

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3 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Also worth pointing out it's not a time in history. Slavery still exists in many forms. It's not something to be complacent about and we should all look at the ethics of companies we choose to purchase from and do everything we can to ensure we put an end to exploitation of humans for financial gain. 

It's hard because it's so endemic in society but I know whilst I am not perfect I am much more conscious of my purchasing choices these days. 

Are you familiar with Ethical Consumer GP?

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/

It's nearly impossible to do it right all the time, but these guys are fairly open with their methodologies and it does allow you to choose what's important to you in your shopping (human rights, environment, working practices etc). It's a reasonable way of making an informed choice, if not perfect.

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2 minutes ago, Quark said:

Are you familiar with Ethical Consumer GP?

https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/

It's nearly impossible to do it right all the time, but these guys are fairly open with their methodologies and it does allow you to choose what's important to you in your shopping (human rights, environment, working practices etc). It's a reasonable way of making an informed choice, if not perfect.

Yes I use it a lot. I just hate this notion that we have put it all behind us. We've just gotten better at putting it out of sight. So many people are in slavery or in conditions that are tantamount to slavery. 

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7 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Yes I use it a lot. I just hate this notion that we have put it all behind us. We've just gotten better at putting it out of sight. So many people are in slavery or in conditions that are tantamount to slavery. 

Absolutely.  It's important to try and remember to distinguish between slavery as a concept (and an ongoing one at that) and the trans-Atlantic slave trade when you're talking about that specific period in history.

Good point well made 

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6 minutes ago, Quark said:

Absolutely.  It's important to try and remember to distinguish between slavery as a concept (and an ongoing one at that) and the trans-Atlantic slave trade when you're talking about that specific period in history.

Good point well made 

Yes I just think this ridiculous Nationalistic spirit that people seem very invested in at the moment and which is at the heart of a lot of the racism and xenophobia that we see would actually do better to think of countries as projects. In any project I have ever been involved in we work on a process of continual improvement refining things to make them better. 

Instead of holding any symbols as sacred and beyond reproach people should see them as the fabric, metal and songs that they are. It's the people that are important and whilst any group of people that live in a country are being left behind/forgotten or mistreated then the country can and should do better. 

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3 minutes ago, gigpusher said:

Yes I just think this ridiculous Nationalistic spirit that people seem very invested in at the moment and which is at the heart of a lot of the racism and xenophobia that we see would actually do better to think of countries as projects. In any project I have ever been involved in we work on a process of continual improvement refining things to make them better. 

Instead of holding any symbols as sacred and beyond reproach people should see them as the fabric, metal and songs that they are. It's the people that are important and whilst any group of people that live in a country are being left behind/forgotten or mistreated then the country can and should do better. 

Churchill is a great example of this, was discussing with my father in law at the weekend.

On one side you have the argument that Churchill led us through WW2 and was exactly the leader we as a country needed at that time.

On the other side is the argument about his views on race, the famine in India and so on.

The thing is, and this what seems to be the struggle, is that it's entirely possible for all of these things to be true! It's like you have to take a side and completely disregard the evidence and actions that he could be anything other than a hero/monster (delete as appropriate). And that's the pattern across a lot of things at the moment.

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48 minutes ago, Quark said:

Churchill is a great example of this, was discussing with my father in law at the weekend.

On one side you have the argument that Churchill led us through WW2 and was exactly the leader we as a country needed at that time.

On the other side is the argument about his views on race, the famine in India and so on.

The thing is, and this what seems to be the struggle, is that it's entirely possible for all of these things to be true! It's like you have to take a side and completely disregard the evidence and actions that he could be anything other than a hero/monster (delete as appropriate). And that's the pattern across a lot of things at the moment.

Absolutely this. The idea that everyone has to have binary opinions on everything is crazy. Nobody is perfect. No cause is perfect, no party is perfect. We are all hypocrites, we all have our bias. All we can do each and everyone of us is try to learn more and be better on a continuous basis. 

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1 hour ago, Quark said:

I've realised recently that these conversations need to be had.  It's not enough just to say "that's irrelevant" or "you shouldn't say that"; if you're like me and want to do what you can to improve things, it happens one conversation at a time. That's not a dig at Ammy or Swedge, but change at the ground level has to come from engaging and talking and arguing the case. Not an aggressive argument, but in the sense of having the debate.

You've more patience than I do mate ;) 

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2 hours ago, guypjfreak said:

Really hate to put this out there.. Yes slavery was a terrible time in history but you must remember that it was black men who sold black men to the slavers.. 

It's all bad 

Your posts on this forum are often called out and usually result in you following up with the suggestion that your words misunderstood. I hope that you can understand that what you have just said insinuates that slavery and racism was and is a self inflicted choice for the black community.

For the benefit of doubt, I'm assuming this is unconscious bias of your behalf. We all have our own prejudices but I created this thread to share anti-racist resources that we can learn from - to interject with a defence and excuse for racial discrimination really stinks. I encourage you to take a look at some of the links I posted on the first page.

I can promise you that listening to what black voices have to say without jumping to conclusions is key right now. The first step is to ditch the 'ifs' and 'buts'. If I was rich, I'd drive an expensive car but I'm not rich. If's and but's should not exist in this discussion. I'm assuming you agree that slavery and racism is wrong? No ifs or buts. Excuses only exist to maintain the systemic racial prejudice in society. It's important that we take some responsibility and start to really learn what part our words and actions play in all of this.

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1 hour ago, SwedgeAntilles said:

You've more patience than I do mate ;) 

You spend enough time around my family and you'll learn patience :lol:

I think of it in the same way I do the questions around things like the judicial and penal system.  Do you just want to punish as the sole aim, or do you also want to rehabilitate and reform?

Same principle.  If you want meaningful change it's not enough to just enforce it, you've got to take people with you. If every person who wants the change has those conversations with one person who's either on the other side or just uninformed and using arguments that can be countered, you've got the basis for progress.

My thinking anyway.  One person can't do a million things, but a million people can do one thing....

download.jpg.1ff5d93c9f04ecfec3d5e775dcd55bfe.jpg

 

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6 minutes ago, Quark said:

You spend enough time around my family and you'll learn patience :lol:

I think of it in the same way I do the questions around things like the judicial and penal system.  Do you just want to punish as the sole aim, or do you also want to rehabilitate and reform?

Same principle.  If you want meaningful change it's not enough to just enforce it, you've got to take people with you. If every person who wants the change has those conversations with one person who's either on the other side or just uninformed and using arguments that can be countered, you've got the basis for progress.

My thinking anyway.  One person can't do a million things, but a million people can do one thing....

download.jpg.1ff5d93c9f04ecfec3d5e775dcd55bfe.jpg

 

And the watermelon on my feet?

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36 minutes ago, Quark said:

You spend enough time around my family and you'll learn patience :lol:

I think of it in the same way I do the questions around things like the judicial and penal system.  Do you just want to punish as the sole aim, or do you also want to rehabilitate and reform?

Same principle.  If you want meaningful change it's not enough to just enforce it, you've got to take people with you. If every person who wants the change has those conversations with one person who's either on the other side or just uninformed and using arguments that can be countered, you've got the basis for progress.

My thinking anyway.  One person can't do a million things, but a million people can do one thing....

download.jpg.1ff5d93c9f04ecfec3d5e775dcd55bfe.jpg

 

Funny but after Brexit I took the same approach. A lot of people I know started blocking people who disagreed with them and I made a conscious decision not to and to challenge lies that I saw in as calm a manner as possible. I'm not convinced I'm changing the die hard xenophobes that I know but they are at least seeing an alternative viewpoint all the time. Civil conversation has to be the way forward even if it did lead to one of the people saying that as he was an indigenous British person and I wasn't; I wasn't as entitled to a point of view about this country as he was. It can be hard work and there are days that I see things that make me want to scream but not seeing them doesn't make them not exist. 

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5 hours ago, gigpusher said:

 ... it did lead to one of the people saying that as he was an indigenous British person and I wasn't; I wasn't as entitled to a point of view about this country as he was. ...

That's just tragic.  I am sorry to chop your post down.  That bit stood out for me though.

 

What is an "indigenous" British Person?  Honestly. 

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