Black Lives Matter

[Mr.Tease]

 

[zahidf]

23 minutes ago, Mr.Tease said:

 

Yup, its a farce. 

[jparx]

Have we ever had a government more intent on attacking people and going on the defensive than working constructively? Can't the of one during my lifetime at least.

Edited June 16, 2020 by jparx

[Crazyfool01]

2 minutes ago, jparx said:

Have we ever had a government more intent on attacking people and going on the defensive than working constructively? Can't the of one during my lifetime at least.

More to the point have we ever had a government that’s made so many cock ups that they need to go defensive ... 

[jparx]

12 minutes ago, crazyfool1 said:

More to the point have we ever had a government that’s made so many cock ups that they need to go defensive ... 

Aye, good point!

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 hours ago, mcshed said:

So your main argument here is black people commit more crimes so of course they are murdered more by the police.

I've two issues with this, firstly you don't seem to be interested in why black people are committing disproportionately more crimes, I would suggest it is because black people are more likely to be poor in a system that doesn't care for the poor. Why are black people more likely to be poor? I suggest that might be systemic racism. I struggle to come up with another reason.

Secondly you seem quite blasé about the fact that having more dealings with police should lead to more murders. Why are the police happy to murder people, with colleagues watching on, without being arrested unless there are demonstrations. If you say the police have more interactions with black people then I'd say having a murderous police force is systematically racist. It doesn't matter if the individual police are killing people because they are black or because they are criminals the fact that the system puts more black people in contact with a police force that has a shocking disregard for life is an example of how a system is racist.

Who said I wasn't interested in the why? This is a classic case of moving the goalposts. I was addressing why BLM are pushing a false narrative and now you're criticising I didn't include all the reasons why there are differences in attainment at high school or why there are more black children without a father at home. You're not interested in learning, you're just interesting in shifting the discussion.

And I am blasé? Talk about projection. How do you know that I am being blasé? Are you watching me? Classic case of playing the man, and not the ball. Stick to the discussion, please, instead of saying something which reads as "You don't care about people getting murdered". FFS. What a ridiculous comment.

Here are some more stats for you which you'll probably ignore and still say "nah" too, like the other guy who just makes comments for the likes.

There are about 42,000,000 black people in the USA.

Police shot 1,004 people last year. 250 were black, or 25%. Nearly all of them were black men armed with a weapon or resisting arrest.

That means as a percentage this number of black people were shot by cops in 2019 -

0.00000595238%

Does that seem like a large number to you?

Compare that to the stats from the FBI about how many black people have killed other black people. 

Where are BLM for that? They're non-existent. 

 

 

Edited June 16, 2020 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

3 hours ago, Neil said:

[to be clear, I'm talking about the UK tho I don't doubt it's the same for the USA too]

Just for a minute I'm going to accept the idea that "black people commit far more crimes", which is your takeaway from the stats you've chosen to concentrate on.

However, it's also - statistically - the case that when a black person 'enters' the criminal justice system via contact with the police (being stopped &/or arrested)...

- (with everything else being equal) they're more likely to be charged with a crime than a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the crime is more likely to be pursued by the prosecuting authorities than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the crime is more likely to go to court than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the rate of conviction is higher than for a white person.
- (with everything else being equal) the sentence is likely to be more harsh than for a white person.

You can find all of this stuff within stats too - and that cannot be because of the reason you give.

You can also find all of the same for women. Is that because they commit more crime than men? Or might other things be at play....?

If you really want to be led by the stats, you need to find better stats, stats that challenge your preconceptions and prejudices rather than re-enforce them.  

Could you send me a link of this?

5 hours ago, mcshed said:

Is that what the graph shows? If we take an average of that graph of approximately 500 whites killed by blacks to 250 blacks killed by whites. That means given the population of the US is 328 million and your demographic make up of 66% and 13.5% then your average white person has a 1 in 433,000 chance of being murdered by a black person where if you are black you have a 1 in 177,000 chance of being murdered by a white person. So you are twice as likely to be killed by a white person if you are black then by a black person if you are white quite the opposite of what you were saying. I don't think those numbers are particularly revealing grabbing at random stats rarely is but they definitely don't say what you are saying they say.

My point still stands. Black to white murders are twice the rate of white to black murders. It should be the other way around, shouldn't it, if the USA is this horribly racist place? It should show that whites kill blacks far more often (whites are 66% compared to blacks 13.5%)..., should it not? But instead the data shows that black people kill twice as many whites, as whites kill blacks. It's a moot point you're making.

I love how these stats are "grabbing random stats". 

Could you or anyone on this forum who has criticised what I've written show ANY evidence to refute my points or support their own?

So far all I've received is character assassinations, insults, and stupid idiots making "nah" comments.

Edited June 16, 2020 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

2 hours ago, zahidf said:

Yup, its a farce. 

Oh, because David "The World Does Not Need Anymore White Saviours" Lammy would be so much better...

 

[hfuhruhurr]

14 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

My point still stands. Black to white murders are twice the rate of white to black murders. It should be the other way around, shouldn't it, if the USA is this horribly racist place? It should show that whites kill blacks far more often (whites are 66% compared to blacks 13.5%)..., should it not? But instead the data shows that black people kill twice as many whites, as whites kill blacks.

What is your point?

What conclusion would you like us to reach from quoting a statistic that I cannot begin to unravel, since I am aware that I don't understand the problem, and haven't the time or expertise to read the literature. I'd be really surprised if you have, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Because unless I examine my own bias, I'd be tempted to conclude from your statistic above that somehow blacks are murderous and deserve what they get because they kill white people at twice the rate.

Fortunately, BLM and other movements have made me examine my bias, made me question out of context stats and dodgy references.

My proposition to you is to let us know if you're biased. I know I am and thanks to BLM I'm working to address it. Are you biased and if so are you motivated to improve?

[MEGATRONICMEATWAGON]

5 minutes ago, hfuhruhurr said:

What is your point?

What conclusion would you like us to reach from quoting a statistic that I cannot begin to unravel, since I am aware that I don't understand the problem, and haven't the time or expertise to read the literature. I'd be really surprised if you have, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

Because unless I examine my own bias, I'd be tempted to conclude from your statistic above that somehow blacks are murderous and deserve what they get because they kill white people at twice the rate.

Fortunately, BLM and other movements have made me examine my bias, made me question out of context stats and dodgy references.

My proposition to you is to let us know if you're biased. I know I am and thanks to BLM I'm working to address it. Are you biased and if so are you motivated to improve?

Did you read my original post? That has my conclusion in it. In summary - BLM are pushing a false narrative and they're nothing but a black nationalist group.

I do NOT think that blacks are more "murderous" or some other pirate slang method of explaining my points. I am claiming that their theory that it's "all racism/it's systemic racism" is bullshit.

There are too many examples of millions and millions of the black middle class/black celebrities and politicians etc to say that it's all racism. When does personal responsiblity take place?

Edited June 16, 2020 by MEGATRONICMEATWAGON

[zahidf]

29 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Oh, because David "The World Does Not Need Anymore White Saviours" Lammy would be so much better...

 

Yes and a lot of Tory rightwing MPs agree

 

 

[Neil]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Could you send me a link of this?

It's within this publication if you can be bothered to track down the full report.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://eprints.lse.ac.uk/87797/&ved=2ahUKEwir_9OSnYbqAhVCZMAKHQS7B-o4ChAWMAF6BAgIEAE&usg=AOvVaw2BnO9j3OhZqJRxgUJC7dyX

And yes, I realise it's now 20+ years old but if things are as simple as you say today then surely they were back then too.

I believe that the Lammy report highlights many of the same things.

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

My point still stands. Black to white murders are twice the rate of white to black murders. It should be the other way around, shouldn't it, if the USA is this horribly racist place? It should show that whites kill blacks far more often (whites are 66% compared to blacks 13.5%)..., should it not? But instead the data shows that black people kill twice as many whites, as whites kill blacks. It's a moot point you're making.

Well your original point doesn't still stand you said that you where twice as likely as a white person to be shot by a black person when the opposite is in fact true. Yes the absolute murder rate is higher but just as the 66%:13.5% ratio should effect the side of murderers it also effects the side of victims if you kill an American completely at random they are more likely to be white than black.

As I said I don't find this use of numbers particularly illuminating stats alone aren't particularly informative without a proper way of looking at them.

[gigpusher]

We are all racist, sexist, classist and homophobic the only thing is some of us are actively trying not to be. It's the only possible explanation for why the UK and the US have 2 leaders who are so totally inept and not up to the job they have because people's default is to trust white, upper class, straight men. 

Ask yourself if you could even for a moment imagine a black man or woman  or even a white woman with just the relationship history of either Trump or Johnson even being in a position of being possibly elected. Forgive the expression but Obama had to be whiter than white to get there. He had no scandals. 

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Who said I wasn't interested in the why? This is a classic case of moving the goalposts. I was addressing why BLM are pushing a false narrative and now you're criticising I didn't include all the reasons why there are differences in attainment at high school or why there are more black children without a father at home. You're not interested in learning, you're just interesting in shifting the discussion.

Sorry I wasn't trying to misrepresent your position, I was saying that systemic racism is how the system is weighted against black people. It doesn't need to be consciously designed to do so, if it has the effect of disadvantaging black people it is racist. So unless you think there is something inherintly different about black people (and I'm not suggesting you do hold these thoughts as they would certainly be racist) the surely you must admit the system is weighted against black people. I'm saying that means it is racism even if it isn't driven by race hate.

[hfuhruhurr]

27 minutes ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Did you read my original post? That has my conclusion in it. In summary - BLM are pushing a false narrative and they're nothing but a black nationalist group.

I do NOT think that blacks are more "murderous" or some other pirate slang method of explaining my points. I am claiming that their theory that it's "all racism/it's systemic racism" is bullshit.

There are too many examples of millions and millions of the black middle class/black celebrities and politicians etc to say that it's all racism. When does personal responsiblity take place?

OK, so why are you quoting those stats? Can you not see that putting them in your argument could draw that conclusion?

Also, and correct me if I'm wrong, but are BLM a group? I thought it was a movement to encourage people to rethink their biases.

Yes, all movements have hijackers who push a their (often toxic) agenda - but the messaging I'm getting from BLM is to take a look at how I think, policies in place, fairness in society and take action to fix the issue wherever we can.

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

And I am blasé? Talk about projection. How do you know that I am being blasé? Are you watching me? Classic case of playing the man, and not the ball. Stick to the discussion, please, instead of saying something which reads as "You don't care about people getting murdered". FFS. What a ridiculous comment.

It seems to me to be a blasé attitude about police murdering black people when arguing against protests about it that you point out that black people commit more crimes. Apologies if you are outraged by police brutality. I think it's racist to have violent cops if cops disproportionately deal with black people but what I want to see on this issues is less violent cops I'm glad we can agree on that even if we disagree that it's racist.

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

There are about 42,000,000 black people in the USA.

Police shot 1,004 people last year. 250 were black, or 25%. Nearly all of them were black men armed with a weapon or resisting arrest.

That means as a percentage this number of black people were shot by cops in 2019 -

0.00000595238%

Does that seem like a large number to you?

They managed to kill George Floyd and Eric Garner and many others without firing a shot.

This is what I mean by random grabbing of stats. Nobody was talking about shootings but yes again from your numbers if 25% of police shootings are to 13.5% of the population that does seem like an issue.

You seem to think black people commiting crimes is evidence against racism I suggest a system where black people disproportionately turn to crime is systematically racist.

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

I love how these stats are "grabbing random stats". 

Could you or anyone on this forum who has criticised what I've written show ANY evidence to refute my points or support their own?

So far all I've received is character assassinations, insults, and stupid idiots making "nah" comments.

It's grabbing random stats as I managed to draw the exact opposite conclusion from the same numbers as you did. I have analysed your evidence and countered it I haven't insulted you. I haven't provided new evidence as believe the evidence you have produced is sufficient in proving my point.

As to the insults and humorous responses, this is a fairly light hearted festival forum most people aren't here to discuss politics in depth, you seem aware that your position is contentious surely you expect some people to be flippant?

[mcshed]

1 hour ago, MEGATRONICMEATWAGON said:

Compare that to the stats from the FBI about how many black people have killed other black people. 

Where are BLM for that? They're non-existent. 

I pretty sure BLM and anyone interested in stopping systematic racism would want to move to a state where there was less black on black crime. I might suggest more trust in the police might help this? 

I don't understand why you don't see that a video of police officer who swore an oath to protect and serve, kneeling on a guys neck for 8 minutes until he dies is more of a lightening rod to protest than crime rates in predominantly black areas being high. Again I assert a solution to systematic racism would address both.

[mcshed]

Apologies if this has been too many posts on the one aspect of this issue. 

I'm worried that as this descends into debate club less people will read this thread and genuine sharing information will be lost. So if anyone feels this is dragging on, please just ask and I'll stop posting.

[Dave_c]

23 minutes ago, mcshed said:

They managed to kill George Floyd and Eric Garner and many others without firing a shot.

This is what I mean by random grabbing of stats. Nobody was talking about shootings but yes again from your numbers if 25% of police shootings are to 13.5% of the population that does seem like an issue.

You seem to think black people commiting crimes is evidence against racism I suggest a system where black people disproportionately turn to crime is systematically racist.

They also killed Tony Timpa and Justine Damond, but nobody knows their names. 

[Gilgamesh69]

Dying of cringe at all these nerds

"B-b-but what about reverse racism!!!"

 

[mcshed]

58 minutes ago, Dave_c said:

They also killed Tony Timpa and Justine Damond, but nobody knows their names. 

I did say many others, I also said even if megatronicmeatwagon doesn't believe in racism police violence is still a problem so obviously police violence against non-blacks is an issue.

[Dave_c]

14 minutes ago, mcshed said:

I did say many others, I also said even if megatronicmeatwagon doesn't believe in racism police violence is still a problem so obviously police violence against non-blacks is an issue.

Agreed, no argument that police use excessive force in situations where it is not warranted, but I think it's false to conclude that this is biased towards BAME.